This was from a discussion on the Best Practices list. It began because you can purchase the Cambridge Latin Course tests at bookstores and online. People were wondering what should be done, how you can get publishers to restrict who gets the books, etc.
The first part is from BP.
***
(my email is doing weird things with line wraps, so I'm sorry if this looks odd)
> The presumption in all of these scenarios is that teachers cannot be
trusted to assess their students. Some cannot. Some doctors are
incompetent, too. But, how did the College Board, or the colleclted
tests of multiple teachers by Cambridge Latin Course, or any particular
school district become suddenly competetent to take over an essential role of the teacher?
>
> We seem to presume that if the College Board, or CLC publishes it,
then it must be right,and we must conform to it.
>
>
> This is a seriosly dangerous course for us to take, in my opinion.
How much of whaat you do as a teacher is important in the relationship
you have with your students? How much of that are you willing to give away?
To whom? Why? On what credentials?
I think you raise very important points, but let us point out that items contained on these
tests can be good, can have valid questions well worth using. And I'm sure you'd agree--
I just want to make sure everyone else agrees.
When I look at a test that is developed and comes with material, I look for items that
tie into my style of teaching. Frankly, I'm looking for stuff I like and that I can use because
I do have limited time and can't rewrite everything. I'm looking at it and thinking, "this
is good, this is ok, but what can I do to make it better?"
I'm also asking myself about what I'm doing in class and what I think is important to test.
I sometimes include conjugating a verb on a vocab quiz, but I don't include things like that
on a test. The test is for showing that you can put it all together. Now, if a student
conjugates a verb or puts endings and stuff in a margin to help him/her answer whatever
question is on the test, I give them extra credit for showing their work.
That's something else I promote a lot that I know others won't or don't: showing work in the margins
or writing on the test--circling endings and tense indicators, etc etc. This is the type of stuff
our A students do naturally, without thinking. These are skills I promote with everyone because
sometimes the B and C students just have no idea how to go about making better grades.
It's also a good way for me to see where a student's thinking went "wrong" and why. I can see is
it because they don't know their endings well OR they don't know how to apply that knowledge.
That is a big help to me. Assessment isn't just about student grades, it's about understanding
how to help students learn and succeed.
Even with AP, there are things about AP tests that I like. I just wish there were more questions
in Latin and perhaps writing in Latn, but that's not a skill we teach in general. That's
not a skill taught in college, except in composition courses. Except by a few.
So I have a lot of things to keep in mind when I'm testing: what truly assesses the student,
what prepares him/her for the next teacher he/she might have (or professor), and what prepares
him/her for the style of testing on the AP. It's a compromise. And I think I can learn
as much from traditional testing styles as I can by developing my own testing styles. I don't
require students to compose in Latin on tests *yet* but I'm thinking about it.
Right now I give them a choice of 4 passages to translate (translate 1). It would be neat
if on some future test I had something like translate one into English, explain another
in Latin in simpler terms.
So I guess there's one more thing to add here when we talk about tests: not just what's
on our tests now, but things we think in an ideal world we might like to see in the future.
Oh, and I don't think tests should be released to parents, but with such a large market in
homeschooling, publishers are having problems. Also, with so much purchasing being
done via the internet, it is hard to control.
And like I said before, they can cheat now but they will CHOKE in a college Latin course
later on. It all comes out in the end. You reap what you sow.
<end note>
***
SO LATER....
I was emailed offlist by a person who was going to post to the list but never did. His point was that when we talk about testing in this fashion and are critical of premade tests, etc, we sound like we are implying that teachers who use those tests are inferior teachers. Anyway, here's what I wrote to him:
***
<from a private note>
I think, though, that the initial discussion (or maybe I missed it) was about why parents/students should be able to access materials that were designed for teachers. And I think there was this idea that we should all be outraged.
Yeah, I am. But I have so much to be outraged about in my life, that takes back seat. I lost a job close to home because I fought for the safety of students and staff after I broke up a gang fight in a girls bathroom. I watched that video of the Baltimore art teacher being beaten by students and I find myself back in that bathroom with the bruiser pinned to the wall behind me near the sinks, wondering whether she would slip out on the right and slam my head into the sink and leaving my children without a mom. Watching that video and I remembered all the girls lining that bathroom that I screamed and screamed at, begging them to go get help, knowing they wouldn't leave.
And I get 4-5 hours of sleep most nights, because I have so many preps. And I feel like a fraud half the time because I can't do all the things I'd like to or think would be incredibly good to do.
And I'm outraged, yes, that the stage tests can be bought which creates more work for teachers who may not have the time.
With that said, I think they are a good place to start but I don't think they are end-all tests. I don't think they are ideal. And I think if your tests stay the same year after year without any changes at all, that maybe (maybe) you aren't involved in improving your own teaching each year. Because frankly, until I get 100% from all students, then I'm going to keep thinking that there's something more I can do.
But even with that said, I would still not say (or would I? I dunno) the teacher using a pre-made test was a bad teacher--because if their homelife is like mine, they may just be in survival mode.
But post it. Post it. It's always good for people to hear how others are hearing them. It's all about communication, and we can't be too intimidated to communicate.
It's ok to disagree with people. We just all need to remember how to be respectful in the process. This is how we learn.
<end note>
****
But, as I said, he never posted the note. I know someone who uses CLC tests, though I think she now uses the test maker. She told me the other day how many of her 8th graders placed on the National Latin Exam--way higher than my overall scores. So I'm not knocking whatever she's doing because it's working.
But me...I want my students to be able to do more than what's on the test. One day I want students to be writing in Latin. Why not?? Why not strive for more than what we were asked to do in school? Why not strive for more than what's in the book?
Anyway. I'm just rambling now. But testing is always a good topic.
The first part is from BP.
***
(my email is doing weird things with line wraps, so I'm sorry if this looks odd)
> The presumption in all of these scenarios is that teachers cannot be
trusted to assess their students. Some cannot. Some doctors are
incompetent, too. But, how did the College Board, or the colleclted
tests of multiple teachers by Cambridge Latin Course, or any particular
school district become suddenly competetent to take over an essential role of the teacher?
>
> We seem to presume that if the College Board, or CLC publishes it,
then it must be right,and we must conform to it.
>
>
> This is a seriosly dangerous course for us to take, in my opinion.
How much of whaat you do as a teacher is important in the relationship
you have with your students? How much of that are you willing to give away?
To whom? Why? On what credentials?
I think you raise very important points, but let us point out that items contained on these
tests can be good, can have valid questions well worth using. And I'm sure you'd agree--
I just want to make sure everyone else agrees.
When I look at a test that is developed and comes with material, I look for items that
tie into my style of teaching. Frankly, I'm looking for stuff I like and that I can use because
I do have limited time and can't rewrite everything. I'm looking at it and thinking, "this
is good, this is ok, but what can I do to make it better?"
I'm also asking myself about what I'm doing in class and what I think is important to test.
I sometimes include conjugating a verb on a vocab quiz, but I don't include things like that
on a test. The test is for showing that you can put it all together. Now, if a student
conjugates a verb or puts endings and stuff in a margin to help him/her answer whatever
question is on the test, I give them extra credit for showing their work.
That's something else I promote a lot that I know others won't or don't: showing work in the margins
or writing on the test--circling endings and tense indicators, etc etc. This is the type of stuff
our A students do naturally, without thinking. These are skills I promote with everyone because
sometimes the B and C students just have no idea how to go about making better grades.
It's also a good way for me to see where a student's thinking went "wrong" and why. I can see is
it because they don't know their endings well OR they don't know how to apply that knowledge.
That is a big help to me. Assessment isn't just about student grades, it's about understanding
how to help students learn and succeed.
Even with AP, there are things about AP tests that I like. I just wish there were more questions
in Latin and perhaps writing in Latn, but that's not a skill we teach in general. That's
not a skill taught in college, except in composition courses. Except by a few.
So I have a lot of things to keep in mind when I'm testing: what truly assesses the student,
what prepares him/her for the next teacher he/she might have (or professor), and what prepares
him/her for the style of testing on the AP. It's a compromise. And I think I can learn
as much from traditional testing styles as I can by developing my own testing styles. I don't
require students to compose in Latin on tests *yet* but I'm thinking about it.
Right now I give them a choice of 4 passages to translate (translate 1). It would be neat
if on some future test I had something like translate one into English, explain another
in Latin in simpler terms.
So I guess there's one more thing to add here when we talk about tests: not just what's
on our tests now, but things we think in an ideal world we might like to see in the future.
Oh, and I don't think tests should be released to parents, but with such a large market in
homeschooling, publishers are having problems. Also, with so much purchasing being
done via the internet, it is hard to control.
And like I said before, they can cheat now but they will CHOKE in a college Latin course
later on. It all comes out in the end. You reap what you sow.
<end note>
***
SO LATER....
I was emailed offlist by a person who was going to post to the list but never did. His point was that when we talk about testing in this fashion and are critical of premade tests, etc, we sound like we are implying that teachers who use those tests are inferior teachers. Anyway, here's what I wrote to him:
***
<from a private note>
I think, though, that the initial discussion (or maybe I missed it) was about why parents/students should be able to access materials that were designed for teachers. And I think there was this idea that we should all be outraged.
Yeah, I am. But I have so much to be outraged about in my life, that takes back seat. I lost a job close to home because I fought for the safety of students and staff after I broke up a gang fight in a girls bathroom. I watched that video of the Baltimore art teacher being beaten by students and I find myself back in that bathroom with the bruiser pinned to the wall behind me near the sinks, wondering whether she would slip out on the right and slam my head into the sink and leaving my children without a mom. Watching that video and I remembered all the girls lining that bathroom that I screamed and screamed at, begging them to go get help, knowing they wouldn't leave.
And I get 4-5 hours of sleep most nights, because I have so many preps. And I feel like a fraud half the time because I can't do all the things I'd like to or think would be incredibly good to do.
And I'm outraged, yes, that the stage tests can be bought which creates more work for teachers who may not have the time.
With that said, I think they are a good place to start but I don't think they are end-all tests. I don't think they are ideal. And I think if your tests stay the same year after year without any changes at all, that maybe (maybe) you aren't involved in improving your own teaching each year. Because frankly, until I get 100% from all students, then I'm going to keep thinking that there's something more I can do.
But even with that said, I would still not say (or would I? I dunno) the teacher using a pre-made test was a bad teacher--because if their homelife is like mine, they may just be in survival mode.
But post it. Post it. It's always good for people to hear how others are hearing them. It's all about communication, and we can't be too intimidated to communicate.
It's ok to disagree with people. We just all need to remember how to be respectful in the process. This is how we learn.
<end note>
****
But, as I said, he never posted the note. I know someone who uses CLC tests, though I think she now uses the test maker. She told me the other day how many of her 8th graders placed on the National Latin Exam--way higher than my overall scores. So I'm not knocking whatever she's doing because it's working.
But me...I want my students to be able to do more than what's on the test. One day I want students to be writing in Latin. Why not?? Why not strive for more than what we were asked to do in school? Why not strive for more than what's in the book?
Anyway. I'm just rambling now. But testing is always a good topic.
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