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This was something I just posted on the Cambridge List. FYI.
****
> DD: Statistical Validity is a measurement of how well the test
> instrument is measuring whatever it is supposed to be measuring.
> Rarely done. Requires two sets of data on the same subjects and the
> correlation between them. Basically first the test, then a prediction,
> then a test of the prediction's results, then a correlation. Consider
> a test for suitability for the ability to be a military pilot. The
> test and then the follow up of how many of the first test actually got
> the wings.
> Validity is seldom tested. I have seen some scientific studies that
> did it, but rarely.
<snip>
> DD: They are trying to confuse the folk in "fly-over-land."
OK, but are they really? I was just as upset as anyone when this first happened, and the first to forward word of this to several people etc.
My husband has an ABD in Ed admin. (ABD=all but dissertation) We have discussed both in the past and currently issues relating to quality test writing, and how most teachers don't know how to write a test that could meet standards of validity and statistical repetition (or whatever--I'm out of my league with such terminology). And I don't think that's a matter of being hypercritical and saying teachers are dumb. That's not it at all. Just inexperienced
But we are well aware, if we are honest with ourselves, that we have probably all used at some point in our own personal history as teachers some test or quiz that really didn't measure what we wanted it to or certainly didn't get the results we predicted.
If we are good teachers we consider the results and try to determine what changes need to be made, whether it is in teaching or test design or both. I've been changing up my tests this year to include a small portion to translate from stories we've read as well as reading comp questions in Latin and English over a sight story (and this year they have been written by yours truly), followed by multiple choice on aspects of grammar and new forms, etc. Do I think my test is statistically sound? Would it stand up to scrutiny? I have no idea. Maybe some parts of it. Maybe more of it than I think. Maybe less.
BUT I DO NOT KNOW STATISTICS. As a liberal arts major I steered clear of stats--foolishly.
What I understand is this. When a test, like AP Vergil or Latin Lit reaches a certain critical mass--large enough numbers to make reliable data--then certain statistical characteristics fall into play. Since the Latin Lit test has choices among the authors, it may have reached critical mass but the data is unreliable because the choices vary.
That's my take on it anyway.
Look, I was talking (privately) a week ago about whether we should get lawyers and force a meeting with AP, if that was even feasible. That is, I was pretty wound up about it. I was frustrated. I was feeling like this is more interference from some national source that's interfering with what we do.
But let's be fair. Let's take off our Latin hat for a moment and consider how a teacher of Greek (ancient? modern?) might feel because they can't get enough bodies to stay in Greek because there is no AP test and the students all want that for their transcripts. Or--even if I think some of the Asian languages are going to be a fad, like Russian back in the 80s--if I were a teacher of Japanese, having captured the interest of a large number of students, only to have them desert me after a couple of years because there is no AP.
Please, we are part of the language community at large and we should not think ourselves better than other languages. Do I think Latin may be more valuable in relationship to our culture? To our language? To certain aspects of our history? Law? Medicine? I would be lying if I said otherwise. But am I going to tell the French teacher that I think Latin is more important to French? No, because she can go to Canada or France and actually communicate in the language. Jobs can be gotten purely for being bilingual in French. I am not fluent in Latin. I can read it but I'm not fluent and I know it. And when my numbers shot up for next year at school, one of the first things I did is check with my department chair to make sure my numbers didn't cut into French and cause her to have to teach something other than French. (Only overloaded Spanish had a dip in numbers, which they were glad off.) Because frankly, I'm exhausted from teaching English as well as Latin and don't wish that on anyone.
I feel like I'm part of a community with the foreign language teachers. It's like we're all serving ice cream but the students like different flavors. Does that mean that one flavor is better than the rest? Surely not.
I think Spanish is justified to have 2 tests because their numbers are HUGE *and* let's face it, our country is bilingual English/Spanish, whether we want it to be or not. (I personally don't mind, and like to read the signs in Spanish to see if I can figure out what they mean.) But no other language comes near--check out the data in the annual report.
So am I still fighting to keep the Latin Lit test? Frankly, I think it's time to accept that it's going. And I think that truly, as Trevor Packer said, they are the experts on test writing and psychometrics. And even if there is obfuscation there--even if only a little--that still leaves us with how do we justify having two exams? I'm certainly not going to tell French that our tests are more important than their tests....
The question is then why do WE want two tests so badly. 1) We like different authors too--more flavors of ice cream; 2) because of playing the number game in order to "make" classes, we need to combine classes and to do that we need to alternate test topics every other year.
In answer to the first, perhaps in a few years the Vergil test will also include other authors (not as choices), and thus we will get variety. In answer to the second, I'm going to say something that may upset people, so I'll apologize in advance. But...is there something different we can do in our teaching to make the language more accessible to a wider audience so that we can have the larger numbers and make an AP class without it needing to be a combined Latin 4/5 or even 3/4? In talking to my strugglers today (after handing back a test that many struggled with), I told them not to give up hope. I would work on the things they found difficult and together we would all keep going to the next level. It's not just a matter of "you must study more." Many don't have a clue what to do differently on their own. But TOGETHER, I think I can get them to the next level.
Our AP classes should not just be the kids that were the straight A students in Latin 1 from the beginning. They should also somehow include students that didn't think they were language learners at first, but who--with help and guidance--persevered to become readers of Latin.
And perhaps I'm just rambling.
And, as others have said, if you need an alternate class/a Latin V class, why not make it an SAT II prep class of sorts, reading whatever authors you like while fine-tuning grammatical concepts?
Yes, many of us if not most of us will need to rethink how we view the structure of our programs. But if we want to be included, we need to be part of the change.
Someone asked whether anyone else had gotten as thorough a response as I got to my letter. As far as I know, the answer is no. Why? Probably because I took the time to consider what AP thinks is important, what their big picture is, and where we might fit into that picture. I still think convincing them to invest in foreign languages in middle school may not only boost our numbers but also create the change in closing the achievement gap that they are after.
Of course, we have to do our part in producing more teachers. How many of you did something for National Latin Teacher Recruitment Week this past March? Are we going to be able to replace the retiring teachers? Can we fill the positions opening up at middle schools???
I don't know what the multimillion dollar investment into the Vergil test is all about, but I want to know more and be a part of it. I want to learn more about psychometrics now. Instead of this being a word that we come to hate (this is how National Board Certification for Latin was shut down for us as well), I want to learn how to use it to our advantage.
The cheese has been moved. We can go after it, or we can stay where we are wondering why it's no longer here. And if we do that, we'll starve.
I know many of you will disagree with all of this, but we can make it work if we view it in a different light. We just have to figure out what angle the sun's shining in at and get ourselves in that light.
ginnyL, using really weird imagery today...(I blame lack of sleep)
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TIME TO MOVE ON
Date: 2008-05-13 10:03 am (UTC)Re: TIME TO MOVE ON
Date: 2008-05-13 10:23 am (UTC)And thank you for seeing the fairness angle. I think too many people still are yelling that it's not fair, why should Spanish get it all?Hohum, I'm surrounded by Spanish speakers daily--it is to our great benefit to have well-educated bilingual speakers, and we know a LARGE number of students taking the Spanish AP tests are native speakers, thus it truly plays be different rules and I understand why. All you have to do is look at the data on the exam to see just how DIFFERENT this is from all the other foreign language exams.
This is the kind of argument my elder son gives me over why we treat him differently from our younger son, the son who has pervasive developmental delays. BECAUSE YOU ARE DIFFERENT. You may look the same but you really are DIFFERENT.
We need to get over ourselves and our dissapointment and become part of the group that SOLVES the next problem--any revisions to Vergil.
hiding it here
Date: 2008-05-14 09:07 pm (UTC)I understand the frustration. I feel totally overwhelmed and overworked and I'm not even teaching AP yet. And I really, really understand everyone's frustrations. From the beginning I posted a reply regarding dropping Latin Lit at the Chronicle article, at eclassics on the petition, and elsewhere. I've been vocal in the group of, well, for lack of a better word, movers-and-shakers in Latin discussing the issue. I've spoken up at CAMWS regarding this issue.
But then I thought about it. I tried to figure out what AP's point of view is, what they valued, what they want. I wrote my letter then--a letter which got a better response than ANYONE ELSE'S LETTER, including AP readers and college professors.
Everyone piping up today on the list was still whining and complaining, looking for faults, trying to say that College Board was giving any ol' flemsy excuse, etc etc. They haven't. It was straight forward and professional. It was calm but definitive. Whether there is truth to the whole psychometric issue or not, well, I can't tell because that's not my specialty area. I want to learn about it now though.
What am I trying to say...? I guess that I thought some of the discussion today to be counterproductive, whiny and unprofessional. Yes, it was venting and I guess people still have a lot of frustration to vent. But that's not going to fix things. When I wrote my letter, it was a view to bring something TO THE TABLE as well as to ask for what I wanted.
I was sad, really, and a bit upset to see people writing ridiculous things. But that's part of the anger and frustration.
I'm sure a lot of people disagree with me. Me? I'm trying to make sure that I'm in a position to be in future discussions on where things go from here with the Vergil test....
Re: hiding it here
Date: 2008-05-21 10:25 pm (UTC)As a student who just took the AP Latin Literature exam and is planning to teach Latin in the future, I would really like to thank you for all your hard work in trying to find answers from College Board. I too have been following the LatinTeach discussions and have seen the frustration. As someone who is seeing this as a participant as well as a third person viewer to the situation, it has been difficult to ascertain what exactly the CB's reasoning for making the cut and how the plan to reorganize the exam system. So thank you so much for being willing to find the answers!
Personally, I never understood why Vergil was the language exam. Yes, I did learn a lot of language from the course but that's also true of Catullus-Ovid (which I believe is a bit more mature in subject matter anyways). In light of the massive budget cuts that have targeted education in Florida, I think it's encouraging that CB is not cutting both exams all together and seem, based on this response, to be willing to work towards a better exam overall. That's better than what is happening here.
Perhaps I am a bit idealistic and elitist but I think that despite the small numbers (at my school Lit is a fourth year class and very few Latin students can even fit it into their schedule since they generally take several restrictive APs) AP Latin is just as valuable. Just because I don't speak it (certamen really is the closest I get) doesn't mean that it isn't essential to my education. The two AP Latin classes at my school (third, fourth, and fifth years) read some Spanish Disney stories with some Spanish I students. Latin is undeniably, as everyone always says, an almost irreplaceable foundation for Romance languages. I'm sure any language would produce a similar foundation but I think Latin does it to such to such a greater extent and much faster. But perhaps the small target audience is just not enough. The VP is right. Teachers can still teach these authors. There is however nothing like learning in an AP class. I am glad that CB will be working on revamping the exams. It's a bit scary because of the change but also exciting!
Thank you so much for updating!
Lauren Hempstead
Re: hiding it here
Date: 2008-05-21 11:58 pm (UTC)There are days I think the effort is worth it, days when it's hard to tell. :)
I was pondering today what it would be like to offer just semester long themes. What about a semester of Vulgate Latin (Bible)? What about a semester of doing Plautus? What if we really taught something the students really WANTED?!
As much as I love Ovid and Vergil and others, I don't recall ever saying, "boy, I can't wait to read the Aeneid!" I'm sure it was a matter of that was next, and I was open to it and in general interested. I still am. I can pick up anything and find a reason to take interest and find something worth liking about it.
I have a kid who found Genesis online and was thrilled to realize that after two years he really does have enough Latin to tackle it. There are a lot of church-going kids out in my area, and a fair number of Catholics. I bet I could offer it and get kids to sign up.
What about if we were to read Plautus, put on a production of a play in Latin, or write our own plays in Latin for a semester? Wouldn't that be cool?
But the problem, of course, is how to you qualify that? The curriculum is set up for levels 1,2,3,4 of a language, not semester electives.
But I digress.
There's something new posted over at eclassics.ning.com, but I haven't had a chance to read it. A new letter that now makes it sound like this was a budget cut after all, and not the whole psychometrics aspect.
Frankly, I don't think the left hand knows what the right hand is doing in AP. But I think an objective view might be that there were two or three issues: 1) money, 2) psychometrics, 3) trying to make the language tests more uniform. I don't think this latter is necessarily bad, but I'd want to know what it looks like, frankly.
So we shall wait and see.
The thing is, this will REALLY be hard on small publishers that have been catering to the needs of AP Latin teachers these last few decades....
Re: hiding it here
Date: 2008-05-22 12:31 am (UTC)I think doing the semester classes at the high school level would be awesome.
I actually studied a bit of Attic Greek in an independent study with my Latin teacher so I could read some sections of the Gospel of John. I think it would be fascinating if the school system would let us have a semester class devoted to translating some of the Vulgate.
I haven't actually translated any of Plautus officially, but I think his general slapstick style would be entertaining to high school students especially if combined with your creative playwriting idea.
Well, the qualifying is certainly the hard part. My Latin teacher has been experimenting in reading different authors. For the past couple of years, he has done Latin I, Latin II, AP Vergil, AP Latin Lit. This year he has reinstituted Latin III. They've been able to do some pretty exciting things this year like translating some of the Hercules stories out of Jenny's (he does a few in Latin II) and Fabulae Romanae. His whole reasoning for jumping into Vergil so fast is to provide kids with some real Latin as soon as possible at least beyond some of the Caesar we translate in Latin II. The IIIs have been able to translate some of the excerpts from LFA II mostly Pliny's Vesuvius letters and the Ghost story. Unfortunately, this method isn't official is highly subjective. But I think the exposure would be a good thing.
Maybe I am just a freak but I was looking forward to Vergil. Maybe it was a combination of the fact that it was AP and all the older students took it and that it's pretty important to Roman culture. I enjoyed taking that class terribly but not everyone can like it that way. The length of it tired people out quickly. Latin Lit was different. In a class of six, everyone could find something they enjoyed between all the poems of Catullus and Ovid.
I can also find something to appreciate in everything and loved both classes in completely different ways.
I can only imagine how difficult it will be for the publishers. I practically bought every AP Latin Lit book that was offered for Catullus and Ovid. They've all be extremely helpful and I will take all the Catullus books to use during my fall class. I'm sure the books become less desirably to many because the Latin Lit is going away in its current form. But for me, the only thing thing that makes them less is that they cater to the sections. Other than that, they are extremely useful. I used Ciraolo's AP Cicero book last summer to read some Pro Caelio. The notes that are listed are extremely helpful when translating. If only there was some way to "nationalize" the teaching of certain authors so that more books would be published. I see what you mean about how the canceling of Lit. will affect it. I had never thought of that.
Re: hiding it here
Date: 2008-05-22 12:52 am (UTC)But I did dramatic interp for JCL and quickly grew to love poetry, Ovid and Vergil alike (usually the sources at that time for dramatic interp). This was 1981-1983, mind you.
What would you think about there being an oral component to AP?!!! Suddenly I'm totally intrigued... no reason why it couldn't be along the lines of the TCA Oral Proficiency Exam (that's never been used) which is posted at http://www.txclassics.org/OralExam.pdf....
heh heh heh
right. I have tons to do and must stop this nonsense.... :)
Re: hiding it here
Date: 2008-05-22 01:02 am (UTC)I'd probably fail the oral component if there was one. Then again I haven't been trained in pronunciation. I have enough trouble when it comes to certamen. The TCA looks interesting. I'm sure if the students were trained...
Yes, I have two more days of high school and one college final to finish and then I can study a bit for my first Nationals so I too must go.
Re: hiding it here
Date: 2008-05-22 02:49 am (UTC)Well, the problem is that there is ALWAYS THIS EXCUSE that people aren't properly trained in it. It's a Catch 22. Let's say it's TIME. It's time to hold the teachers accountable for pronunciation. It's time to discuss why it is so important, so vital to teaching poetry and prose well.
Get mark Miner's CDs from Bolchazy=Carducci for Wheelocks and start working on your pronunciation today! NO MORE EXCUSES. Don't perpetuate the problem. FIX IT YOURSELF!!!!!! :)
Re: hiding it here
Date: 2008-05-22 03:09 am (UTC)