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I have honestly never given much thought to the Ablative of Respect. It always struck me as one of those ablatives that would get glossed if needed or I would just fudge my understanding. But I think this is one that is worth discussing with our students in helping them to understand yet another ablative that has no governing preposition.
First, what the grammarians say:
Ablative of Respect, Gildersleeve and Lodge, p 255ff
397. The Ablative of Respect or Specification gives the Point From Which a thing is measured or treated, an is put in answer to the questions “From What Point of View? According to What? By What? In Respect of What?
Dīscrīptus populus cēnsū, ōrdinibus, aetātibus, a people drawn off according to income, rank, (and) age. Ennius ingeniō māximus, arte rudis, Ennius in genius great, in art unskilled. Animō īgnāvus, procāx ōre, coward of soul, saucy of tongue.
Noteworthy are the phrases: crīne ruber, red-haired; captus oculīs (literally, caught in the eyes), blind; captus mente, insane; meā sententiā, according to my opinion; iūre, by right; lēge, by law; and the Supines in -ū (436*).
398. The Ablative of Respect is used with the Comparative instead of quam, than, with the Nominative or Accusative; but in the classical language mainly after a negative or its equivalent.
Tunica propior palliōst, the shirt is nearer than the cloak. Nihil est virtūte amābilius, nothing is more attractive than virtue. quid est in homine ratiōne dīvīnius? what is there in man more godlike than reason?
*436. The Ablative Supine is used chiefly with Adjectives, as the Ablative of the Point of View From Which (397). It never takes an object.
Mīrābile dictū, wonderful (in the telling) to tell, vīsū, to behold.
id dictū quam rē facilius est, that is easier in the saying than in the fact (easier said than done).
Ablative of the Respect in Which, Hale & Buck, p 231ff
441. The Respect in Which the meaning of the Verb or Adjective is to be taken is expressed by the Ablative, regularly without a Preposition. This Ablative answers the question, In what? Wherein?
cum virtūte omnibus praestārent, since they surpassed all in bravery; numerō ad duodecim, about twelve in number; alterō oculō capitur, is blinded in one eye; maiōrēs nātū, the elders (greater in respect of birth); Similarly with maximus, minor, and minimus, oldest, younger, youngest.
Ablative of Specification. Bennett’s New Latin Grammar
226. The Ablative of Specification is used to denote that in respect to which something is or is done; as,--
Helvētiī omnibus Gallīs virtūte praestābant, the Helvetians surpassed all the Gauls in valor; pede claudus, lame in his foot
1. Note the phrases:--
maior nātū, older (greater as to age); minor nātu, younger
2. Here belongs the use of the Ablative with dignus, worthy, indignus, unworthy, and dignor, deem as worthy of; as—
dignī honōre, worthy of honor; fidē indignī, unworthy of confidence; mē dignor honōre, I deem myself worthy of honor.
Language Information CLC Unit 4, p 324
10. The Ablative of Respect indicates in what respect something is true:
architectus Haterius id exstrūxit. An architect named Haterius built it.
(The Ablative of Respect is not mentioned at all in Cambridge’s A Student’s Latin Grammar.)
Here are the sentences from CLC that use Ablative of Respect:
· 29 ūnā cum eīs in carcere erant quīnque līberī, quōrum Simōn nātū maximus sōlācium mātrī et aviae ferre temptābat.
· 30 quīntō diē uxor, Vitellia nōmine, quae nesciēbat quārē Haterius adeō īrātus esset, eum mollīre temptābat.
· 32 “haec puella,” inquit glōriāns, “est philosopha doctissima, nōmine Euphrosynē.”
· 33 Iūdaeus erat, Tychicus nōmine, cliēns T. Flāviī Clēmentis.
· 33 simul pūmiliō, Myropnous nōmine, tībīcen atque amīcus Paridis suāviter tībiīs cantābat.
· 33 subitō servus, nōmine Olympus, quem Domitia iānuam ātriī custōdīre iusserat, ingressus est.
· 34 paucīs post diēbus Domitia ancillam, nōmine Chionēn, ad sē vocāvit.
· 35 quam aliī, mīrābile dictū, spectāculum splendidissimum vocābant.
· 35 Calēdoniī crēduntur ferōcissimī omnium Britannōrum esse, terribilēs vīsū audītūque.
· 36 amīcī meī dīcunt poētam quendam, Fīdentīnum nōmine, meōs libellōs quasi suōs recitāre.
· 36 nōmine Diaulus sum.
· 37 ego enim prīmus ā Domitiānō sententiam rogābor, quia cōnsulāris sum nātū maximus..
· 37 mīsit Agricola nōbīs litterās verbō speciōsās, rē vērā inānēs.
· 37 ille tamen nec verbō nec vultū sēnsūs ostendit.
· 37 Agricola, meā sententiā, revocandus, laudandus, tollendus est.
· 38 ita vērō! aetāte flōret.
· 39 alter puer, Titus nōmine, fābulam nārrāre cōnātur; alter, nōmine Pūblius, intentē audit.
· 39 Quīntiliānus verētur nē Pūblius, quod minor nātū est, nārrātiōnem excipere nōn possit.
Ablative of Comparison
· 37 priusquam Crispus respondēret, A. Fabricius Vēientō, cēterīs paulō audācior, interpellāvit.
· 37 tum Messālīnus, simulatque haec Epaphrodītī verba audīvit, occāsiōne ūsus, “satis cōnstat,” inquit, “nūllōs hostēs ferōciōrēs Germānīs esse, nūllum ducem Domitiānō Augustō esse meliōrem.
· 37 tum Messālīnus, simulatque haec Epaphrodītī verba audīvit, occāsiōne ūsus, “satis cōnstat,” inquit, “nūllōs hostēs ferōciōrēs Germānīs esse, nūllum ducem Domitiānō Augustō esse meliōrem.
· 39 ille tamen fortius frātre incipit.
Ablative with Dignus
· 37 ibi mīlitēs nostrī, spē glōriae adductī, victōriam nōmine tuō dignam rettulērunt.
· 38 virum quendam cognōvī quī omnī modō fīliā tuā dignus est.
The first instance of the Ablative of Respect is in Stage 29, one stage after the introduction of Ablative of Means (though not identified as such), and which students probably just see as another weird ablative, not sure what it’s doing. In fact, the guess work is removed from students by glossing, with nātū maximus being translated as “eldest.” This follows a sentence which gives another form of natus and might be confusing for students:
altera erat anus exāgintā annōrum, altera mātrōna trīgintā annōs nāta. ūnā cum eīs in carcere erant quīnque līberī, quōrum Simōn nātū maximus sōlācium mātrī et aviae ferre temptābat.
After this initial Ablative of Respect which escapes with glossing, we have at least 6 examples with nōmine (named/by name), which students easily accept. Then we meet supines, which really only appear in Stage 35. I was always taught to just get used to the idiom “wonderful to say” and accept that this is just the way this little oddity of Latin works. For me, it is nice to understand that it fits into a larger picture of how ablatives function.
Stage 37 we see nātū maximus again, and later a sentence in which understanding the concept of Ablative of Respect might be helpful: mīsit Agricola nōbīs litterās verbō speciōsās, rē vērā inānēs. “Agricola sent to us a letter impressive in word but empty in true matter.” And surely this is also an Ablative of Respect: ille tamen nec verbō nec vultū sēnsūs ostendit. “He however showed his feelings neither in word nor expression.”
Gildersleeve and Lodge say that meā sententiā, also found in Stage 37 is an Ablative of Respect. And surely the little sentence, aetāte flōret, glossed as “to be in the prime of life,” could be seen as “he’s flourishing in respect to age” though that would be cumbersome.
I can see how Ablative of Comparison and even using the ablative with dignus can be included in Ablative of Respect and thus included lists with those above. I do want to point out that there are two sentences that are together in Stage 39 where both use the comparative, the first strikes me as a more traditional Ablative of Respect (minor nātū), while the second makes me think Ablative of Comparison (fortius frātre incipit). Here they are in full:
Quīntiliānus verētur nē Pūblius, quod minor nātū est, nārrātiōnem excipere nōn possit. ille tamen fortius frātre incipit.
I am sure CLC has these together on purpose as a contrast. I just think that’s worth noting. And I now really think that it’s worth explaining Ablative of Respect, at least to my Latin 3’s. It helps with understanding that you can use other words because of the different ways in which the ablative is functioning—and that it doesn’t just need to be guess work.
And as always, all of these things are taken in while reading in word order, understanding phrasing, and rereading as needed.
First, what the grammarians say:
Ablative of Respect, Gildersleeve and Lodge, p 255ff
397. The Ablative of Respect or Specification gives the Point From Which a thing is measured or treated, an is put in answer to the questions “From What Point of View? According to What? By What? In Respect of What?
Dīscrīptus populus cēnsū, ōrdinibus, aetātibus, a people drawn off according to income, rank, (and) age. Ennius ingeniō māximus, arte rudis, Ennius in genius great, in art unskilled. Animō īgnāvus, procāx ōre, coward of soul, saucy of tongue.
Noteworthy are the phrases: crīne ruber, red-haired; captus oculīs (literally, caught in the eyes), blind; captus mente, insane; meā sententiā, according to my opinion; iūre, by right; lēge, by law; and the Supines in -ū (436*).
398. The Ablative of Respect is used with the Comparative instead of quam, than, with the Nominative or Accusative; but in the classical language mainly after a negative or its equivalent.
Tunica propior palliōst, the shirt is nearer than the cloak. Nihil est virtūte amābilius, nothing is more attractive than virtue. quid est in homine ratiōne dīvīnius? what is there in man more godlike than reason?
*436. The Ablative Supine is used chiefly with Adjectives, as the Ablative of the Point of View From Which (397). It never takes an object.
Mīrābile dictū, wonderful (in the telling) to tell, vīsū, to behold.
id dictū quam rē facilius est, that is easier in the saying than in the fact (easier said than done).
Ablative of the Respect in Which, Hale & Buck, p 231ff
441. The Respect in Which the meaning of the Verb or Adjective is to be taken is expressed by the Ablative, regularly without a Preposition. This Ablative answers the question, In what? Wherein?
cum virtūte omnibus praestārent, since they surpassed all in bravery; numerō ad duodecim, about twelve in number; alterō oculō capitur, is blinded in one eye; maiōrēs nātū, the elders (greater in respect of birth); Similarly with maximus, minor, and minimus, oldest, younger, youngest.
Ablative of Specification. Bennett’s New Latin Grammar
226. The Ablative of Specification is used to denote that in respect to which something is or is done; as,--
Helvētiī omnibus Gallīs virtūte praestābant, the Helvetians surpassed all the Gauls in valor; pede claudus, lame in his foot
1. Note the phrases:--
maior nātū, older (greater as to age); minor nātu, younger
2. Here belongs the use of the Ablative with dignus, worthy, indignus, unworthy, and dignor, deem as worthy of; as—
dignī honōre, worthy of honor; fidē indignī, unworthy of confidence; mē dignor honōre, I deem myself worthy of honor.
Language Information CLC Unit 4, p 324
10. The Ablative of Respect indicates in what respect something is true:
architectus Haterius id exstrūxit. An architect named Haterius built it.
(The Ablative of Respect is not mentioned at all in Cambridge’s A Student’s Latin Grammar.)
Here are the sentences from CLC that use Ablative of Respect:
· 29 ūnā cum eīs in carcere erant quīnque līberī, quōrum Simōn nātū maximus sōlācium mātrī et aviae ferre temptābat.
· 30 quīntō diē uxor, Vitellia nōmine, quae nesciēbat quārē Haterius adeō īrātus esset, eum mollīre temptābat.
· 32 “haec puella,” inquit glōriāns, “est philosopha doctissima, nōmine Euphrosynē.”
· 33 Iūdaeus erat, Tychicus nōmine, cliēns T. Flāviī Clēmentis.
· 33 simul pūmiliō, Myropnous nōmine, tībīcen atque amīcus Paridis suāviter tībiīs cantābat.
· 33 subitō servus, nōmine Olympus, quem Domitia iānuam ātriī custōdīre iusserat, ingressus est.
· 34 paucīs post diēbus Domitia ancillam, nōmine Chionēn, ad sē vocāvit.
· 35 quam aliī, mīrābile dictū, spectāculum splendidissimum vocābant.
· 35 Calēdoniī crēduntur ferōcissimī omnium Britannōrum esse, terribilēs vīsū audītūque.
· 36 amīcī meī dīcunt poētam quendam, Fīdentīnum nōmine, meōs libellōs quasi suōs recitāre.
· 36 nōmine Diaulus sum.
· 37 ego enim prīmus ā Domitiānō sententiam rogābor, quia cōnsulāris sum nātū maximus..
· 37 mīsit Agricola nōbīs litterās verbō speciōsās, rē vērā inānēs.
· 37 ille tamen nec verbō nec vultū sēnsūs ostendit.
· 37 Agricola, meā sententiā, revocandus, laudandus, tollendus est.
· 38 ita vērō! aetāte flōret.
· 39 alter puer, Titus nōmine, fābulam nārrāre cōnātur; alter, nōmine Pūblius, intentē audit.
· 39 Quīntiliānus verētur nē Pūblius, quod minor nātū est, nārrātiōnem excipere nōn possit.
Ablative of Comparison
· 37 priusquam Crispus respondēret, A. Fabricius Vēientō, cēterīs paulō audācior, interpellāvit.
· 37 tum Messālīnus, simulatque haec Epaphrodītī verba audīvit, occāsiōne ūsus, “satis cōnstat,” inquit, “nūllōs hostēs ferōciōrēs Germānīs esse, nūllum ducem Domitiānō Augustō esse meliōrem.
· 37 tum Messālīnus, simulatque haec Epaphrodītī verba audīvit, occāsiōne ūsus, “satis cōnstat,” inquit, “nūllōs hostēs ferōciōrēs Germānīs esse, nūllum ducem Domitiānō Augustō esse meliōrem.
· 39 ille tamen fortius frātre incipit.
Ablative with Dignus
· 37 ibi mīlitēs nostrī, spē glōriae adductī, victōriam nōmine tuō dignam rettulērunt.
· 38 virum quendam cognōvī quī omnī modō fīliā tuā dignus est.
The first instance of the Ablative of Respect is in Stage 29, one stage after the introduction of Ablative of Means (though not identified as such), and which students probably just see as another weird ablative, not sure what it’s doing. In fact, the guess work is removed from students by glossing, with nātū maximus being translated as “eldest.” This follows a sentence which gives another form of natus and might be confusing for students:
altera erat anus exāgintā annōrum, altera mātrōna trīgintā annōs nāta. ūnā cum eīs in carcere erant quīnque līberī, quōrum Simōn nātū maximus sōlācium mātrī et aviae ferre temptābat.
After this initial Ablative of Respect which escapes with glossing, we have at least 6 examples with nōmine (named/by name), which students easily accept. Then we meet supines, which really only appear in Stage 35. I was always taught to just get used to the idiom “wonderful to say” and accept that this is just the way this little oddity of Latin works. For me, it is nice to understand that it fits into a larger picture of how ablatives function.
Stage 37 we see nātū maximus again, and later a sentence in which understanding the concept of Ablative of Respect might be helpful: mīsit Agricola nōbīs litterās verbō speciōsās, rē vērā inānēs. “Agricola sent to us a letter impressive in word but empty in true matter.” And surely this is also an Ablative of Respect: ille tamen nec verbō nec vultū sēnsūs ostendit. “He however showed his feelings neither in word nor expression.”
Gildersleeve and Lodge say that meā sententiā, also found in Stage 37 is an Ablative of Respect. And surely the little sentence, aetāte flōret, glossed as “to be in the prime of life,” could be seen as “he’s flourishing in respect to age” though that would be cumbersome.
I can see how Ablative of Comparison and even using the ablative with dignus can be included in Ablative of Respect and thus included lists with those above. I do want to point out that there are two sentences that are together in Stage 39 where both use the comparative, the first strikes me as a more traditional Ablative of Respect (minor nātū), while the second makes me think Ablative of Comparison (fortius frātre incipit). Here they are in full:
Quīntiliānus verētur nē Pūblius, quod minor nātū est, nārrātiōnem excipere nōn possit. ille tamen fortius frātre incipit.
I am sure CLC has these together on purpose as a contrast. I just think that’s worth noting. And I now really think that it’s worth explaining Ablative of Respect, at least to my Latin 3’s. It helps with understanding that you can use other words because of the different ways in which the ablative is functioning—and that it doesn’t just need to be guess work.
And as always, all of these things are taken in while reading in word order, understanding phrasing, and rereading as needed.
