ginlindzey

I think sometimes we as teachers may have blinders on with regards to some things that we perceive as simple because of the order of information we were taught in the grammar-first method. One of these, I think, is ā/ab = from, away from.  I notice that I rely a lot on context—as we should—but maybe too often and expect my Latin 2’s to have no problem with it.  And many do not.  But of course, we all have those students in Latin 2 who are just there to get their two years of credit. They don’t see what we think of as “easy” often. After all, just memorize the possible meanings of the prepositions and apply, right?

When Ablative of Means is introduced in Stage 28 (but at no time called that in the About the Language section in that stage), I make a big deal about contrasting it with the Ablative of Agent. I’m sure we all do.  And yet, this is also the stage where we see a significant jump in ā/ab being used as “from, away from.” I hardly address it; I brush those phrases off as insignificant.  But I don’t think they are anymore. Stage 21 is where we get Ablative of Agent although it’s not addressed in the About the Language, which is fine, because the focus is on the perfect passive participle. And I don’t make a big deal about the Ablative of Agent until we have the Ablative of Means for contrast.  Yet surely I could have been highlighting way before Stage 28 about the difference between Agent and Separation, even if not calling the ablatives by their “names”?  Part of the problem was that at that time I really did not even think of it as any particular type of Ablative, but simply just that this was one of those times you use “from.”  (Part of my being sloppy in my own thinking about Ablatives, admittedly.)  Are these all Place from Which (Whence), even with people? Ablative of Separation? How are these truly categorized and why and what is the thinking behind it?

And before I dive into anything more, let me reemphasize that what I am talking about is not about learning grammatical terms for grammar’s sake, but for clarifying my own understanding and that of my students about what is really going on in the Latin.

So back to the grammarians first:

Ablative of Place Whence. Ablātīvus Sēparātīvus. Gildersleeve and Lodge, p 249ff

390.
1.      The Ablative answers the question Whence? and takes as a rule the prepositions ex, out of, dē, from, ab, off.
(Eum) exturbāstī ex aedibus?, did you hustle him out of the house? Arānēā dēiciam dē pariete, I will get the cobwebs down from the wall. Alcibiadem Athēniēnsēs ē cīvitāte expulērunt, the Athenians banished Alcibiades from the state. dēcēdit ex Galliā Rōmam Naevius, Naevius withdrew from Gaul to Rome. unde dēiēcistī sive ex quō locō, sive ā quō locō (whether out of or from which place), eō restituās.
2.      The prepositions are often omitted with Verbs of Abstaining, Removing, Relieving, and Excluding; so regularly with domō, from home, rūre, from the country.
With Persons a preposition (chiefly ab) must be used.
(Verrēs) omnia domō ēius abstulit, Verres took everything away from his house. ego, cum Tullius rūre redierit, mittam eum ad tē, when Tullius returns from the country, I will send him to you.
Compare Aliēnō manum abstineant, let them keep their hand(s) from other people’s property, with [Alexander] vix ā sē manūs abstinuit, Alexander hardly kept (could hardly keep) his hands from himself (from laying hands on himself).
Compare Lapidibus optimōs virōs forō pellis, you drive men of the best classes from the forum with stones, with istum aemulum ab eā pellitō, drive that rival from her.
Compare omnium rērum nātūrā cōgnitā līberāmur mortis metū, by the knowledge of universal nature we get rid of the fear of death, with tē ab eō līberō, I rid you of him.
Compare Amīcitia nūllō locō exclūditur, friendship is shut out from no place, with ab illā exclūdor, hōc conclūdor, I am shut out from her (and) shut up here (to live with her).
NOTES. [I’m only including 2 here because G&L do go on in great detail.]
3. Of compound verbs with the Abl, Cicero shows only sē abdicāre (principally technical), abesse (rarely), abhorrēre (once); abīre (in technical uses = sē abdicāre), abrumpere (once), absolvere, abstinēre (intrans. without, trans. more often with, preposition), dēicere (with aedīlitāte, etc), dēmovēre (once), dēpellere, dēsistere, dēturbāre; ēdūcere (rare); efferre (rare); ēgredī; ēicere; ēlābī (rare); ēmittere (Caesar); ēripere (rare; usually Dat.); ēvertere; excēdere; exclūdere; exīre (rare); expellere; exsolvere; exsistere (rare); exturbāre; interclūdere; interdīcere (alicuī aliquā rē; also alicuī aliquid); praecipitāre (Caesar); prohibēre; supersedēre.
6. The place Whence gives the Point of View from which. In English a different translation is often given, though not always necessarily; ā tergō, in the rear; ex parte dextrā, on the right side; ab oriente, on the east; ā tantō spatiō, at such a distance; ex fugā, on the flight; ā rē frūmentāriā labōrāre, to be embarrassed in the matter of provisions.

3.      The prepositions are also omitted with kindred Adjectives. [I’m skipping the details on this.]
391. Names of Towns and Small Islands are put in the Ablative of the Place Whence. [I’m skipping the details on this.]

The Separative Ablative, Hale & Buck, p 212ff
(Hale & Buck are quite lengthy on the Separative Ablative, so I will be skipping a bit.)

Ablative with Separative Prepositions
405. The Ablative is always used with the Separative Prepositions ā, āb or abs, dē, ē or ex, sine.
406. The Separative Ablative with a Preposition is used to express a variety of ideas. Notice especially:
1.      The Agent of the Passive Voice, with ab…
2.      The Point of View from Which, with ab or ex (our English conception is generally that of the place where). Thus:
ā tergō, ā novissimō agmine, etc., (from) on the rear
ā latere, (from) on the side
ā fronte (from) on the front
ex (ab) hāc parte, (from) on this side
ex (ab) utrāque parte, on both sides, etc, etc
initium capit ā, begins (from) at, etc, etc
3.      The Condition or Situation from or out of Which, with dē or ex: ex vinculīs causam dīcere, to plead his cause in chains; fīēs dē rhētore cōnsul, from professor, you shall become consul…
4.      The Material of Which a thing is made, with ex (also, in poetry, with dē): factae ex rōbore, made of oak; pōcula ex aurō, cups of gold; fuit dē marmore templum, there was a temple of marble.
Ablative with Verbs of Separation
408. Verbs of Separation take an Ablative. The Preposition, if employed, is ab, dē, or ex. The general usage in Ciceronian prose is as follows:
1.      The Preposition is freely omitted with Verbs of literal Separation, if themselves containing a separative Preposition (ab, dē, or ex).
castrīs ēgressī, going out from the camp
ē castrīs ēgressī, going out from the camp
2.      The Preposition is freely omitted with Verbs expressing either literal or figurative Separation, if in very common use in both senses.
dē mūrō sē dēiēcērunt, leaped from the wall (threw themselves down from)
mūrō dēiectī, driven down from the wall
nē dē honōre dēicerer, that I should not be deprived of the honor (driven from it)
eā spē dēiectī, deprived of this hope
3.      The Preposition is regularly omitted with Verbs expressing figurative Separation only.
magistrātū, sē abdicāvit, abdicated (resigned from) his office
proeliō supersedēre, to refrain from battle
410. Remarks on the Ablative with Verbs of Separation.
1.      With most Verbs of Separation, whether literal or figurative, a preposition is used with words denoting persons.
manūs ā tē abstinēre, to keep their hands off from you
2.      The poets freely use the Ablative without a preposition in any combination expressing or suggesting separation. This is true even if no verb is employed, and even if the word used denotes a person.
adsurgēns flūctū, rising from the wave
antrō lātrāns, barking from the cave
marītī Tyrō, suitors from Tyre
dēiectam coniuge tantō, robbed of so great a spouse
[There’s more, but that’s more than enough.]
One last thing I found elsewhere in Gildersleeve and Lodge on p 216, section 339, which speaks to idiom and usage:
This then is not the only way,
For it is also right to say,
docēre and cēlāre dē,
interrogāre dē quā rē.
pōscō, I claim, and flāgitō,
and always petō, pōstulō,
take aliquid ab aliquō,
while quaerō takes ex, ab, dē, quō.

Ablative of Separation, Bennett’s New Latin Grammar (which I’m accessing via the SPQR ap).
400. Words signifying Separation or Privation are followed by the ablative.
401. Verbs meaning to remove, set free, be absent, deprive, and want, take the Ablative (sometimes with ab or ex):--
1.      oculīs sē prīvāvit, he deprived himself of eyes
2.omnī Galliā Rōmānīs interdīcit, he (Ariovistus) bars the Romans from the whole of Gaul.
3.      eī aquā et īgnī interdīcitur, he is debarred the use of fire and water.
4.      voluptātibus carēre, to lack enjoyments
5.      nōn egeō medicīnā, I want no physic
6.      levāmur superstitiōne, līberāmur mortis metū, we are relieved from superstition, we are freed from fear of death.
7.      solūtī ā cupidiātibus, freed from desires
8.      multōs ex hīs incommodī pecūniā sē līberāsse, that many have freed themselves by money from these inconveniences.
402. Verbs compounded with ā, ab, dē, ex, (1) take the simple Ablative when used figuratively; but (2) when used literally to denote actual sepārātion or motion, they usually require a preposition:--
1.      (1) cōnātū dēsistere, to desist from the attempt
2.      dēsine commūnibus locīs, quit commonplaces
3.      abīre magistrātū, to leave one’s office
4.      abstinēre inūriā, to refrain from wrong
5.      (2) ā prōpositō aberrāre, to wander from the point
6.      dē prōvinciā dēcēdere, to withdraw from one’s province
7.      ab iūre abīre, to go outside of the law
8.      ex cīvitāte excessēre, they departed from the state. [But cf. fīnibus suīs excesserant, they had left their own territory.]
9.      ā magnō dēmissum nōmen Iūlō, a name descended (sent down) from great Iulus
a. Adjectives denoting freedom and want are followed by the ablative:--
1.      urbs nūda praesidiō, the city naked of defence
2.      immūnis mīlitiā, free of military service
3.plēbs orba tribūnīs, the people deprived of tribunes
4.      ā culpā vacuus, free from blame
5.      līberī ā dēliciīs, free from luxuries
6.Messāna ab hīs rēbus vacua atque nūda est, Messana is empty and bare of these things.
[There’s more regarding Abl of Source and Abl of Material.]

***
So what is going on in CLC and should we address it or not with our students?  Since I was originally looking specifically for uses of ā/ab, I did not go back further than Stage 14. Of course, other prepositions of separation (dē, ex) were seen in Unit 1.  Here are the sentences I’ve pulled out for consideration:


·         14     haec vīlla ab urbe longē abest.
*first use of AB (away from)
·         15     ā tergō Belimicus, gubernātor Cantiacus, nautās suōs vituperābat.
·         17     Barbillus hās gemmā ā mercātōre Arabī ēmerat.
·         18     omnēs igitur tabernāriī auxilium ā mē petunt.
*first instance of auxilium…petere
·         18     quondam, ubi ā templō, in quō cēnāverat, domum redībat, amīcum cōnspexit accurrentem.
·         20     hoc ūnum ā tē postulō.
·         20     nunc tandem veniam ā Rūfō petō.
·         20     do, legō Helenae, fīliae Aristōnis et Galateae, gemmās quās ā mercātōre Arabī ēmī.
·         22     Modestus tamen puellam retinēre nōn potest, quod auxilium ā deā petīvī.
·         26     iubeō tē ad Cogidubnī aulam īre, veniamque ab eō petere.
·         28     L. Marcius Memor, ubi aeger ad thermās vēnī, ut auxilium ā deā Sūle peterem, benignē me excēpit.
·         28     Belimicus enim mē ab ursā ōlim servāvit, quae per aulam meam saeviēbat.
·         28     pecūniam ā Britannīs extorquēre statim coepit.
·         28     dolus malus ab hōc testāmentō abestrō!
·         28     decimō diē, iterum profectus, pecūniās opēsque ā Britannīs extorquēre incēpit.
·         28     Belimicus autem, quamquam prō hōc auxiliō multa praemia honōrēsque ā Salviō accēpit, hadquāquam contentus erat.
·         28     “mī Salvī, multa et magna beneficia ā mē accēpistī.”
·         28     num quicquam ab illō spērāvistī?
·         29     cūr tum ā morte abhorruī?
·         29     ille igitur fabrīs, quamquam omnīnō dēfessī erant, identidem imperābat nē labōre dēsisterent.
·         30     melius est tibi ad Salvium īre blandīsque verbīs ab eō hunc honōrem repetere.
·         30     et amīcōs et clientēs, quī vēnērunt ut tē salūtārent, domō abēgistī.
·         30     quid aliud ā Salviō accipere cupis? p 194
·         30     mē iuvat igitur sēstertium tantum trīciēns ā tē accipere.
·         31     aliī spē pecūniae dēiectī invītī discessērunt.
·         32     servus eam hortātus est ut praecōnem dōnīs corrumperet; sed Euphrosynē ab eiusmodī factīs abhorruit.
·         32     “nōbīs placet, mea Euphrosynē,” inquit, “ā tē aliquid philosophiae discere.”
·         33     domō eum trahēbant magnā vōce clāmantem:…
·         33     tū autem, Paris, fīlius diabolī, nisi vitiīs tuīs dēstiteris, poenās dabis. nūlla erit fuga.
·         33     quae cum prōnūntiāvisset, Tychicus multīs verberibus acceptīs domō ēiectus est.
·         34     auxilium igitur ab amīcō C. Salviō Līberāle petīvit.
·         35     litterae cotīdiē ā Britanniā exspectantur, ubi Agricola bellum contrā Calēdoniōs gerit.
·         35     gaudiō enim afficiēbar, quod tam diū epistulam ā tē exspectābam; dolēbam autem, quod tū tot labōribus opprimēbāris.
·         35     ille mē iussit vīnō abstinēre, medicīnam sūmere.
·         36     ūnus audītor tamen, M’ Acīlius Glabriō, tālī adulātiōne offēnsus, nōn modo plausū abstinet sed ē sellā surgit ut ex auditōriō ēgrediātur.
·         38     ō Helvidī, ēripe mē ex hīs malīs!
·         38     tē ex hīs malīs ēripiam, sīcut tū modo precābāris.
·         38     servī, ut mōs est, puellam ā mātre abripiunt.
·         38     quī, domō ēgressus, Pōllam ita appellat:…
·         39     …madidīs Notus ēvolat ālīs; barba gravis nimbīs, cānīs fluit unda capillīs.
·         39     omnia pontus erant, dēerant quoque lītora pontō.
·         40     Domitia autem, iam ab exiliō revocāta atque in favōrem Domitiānī restitūta, intentē ultiōnem adversus Salvium meditābātur.
·         40     quibus audītīs, Salvius spērāre coepit sē ē manibus accūsātōrum ēlāpsūrum esse.
·         40     cum autem sēcrētīs Domitiae precibus veniam ā prīncipe impetrāvisset, Salvium dēserere cōnstituit; dēnique mediā nocte ā marītī cubiculō ēgressa domum patris suī rediit.
·         40     cum autem sēcrētīs Domitiae precibus veniam ā prīncipe impetrāvisset, Salvium dēserere cōnstituit; dēnique mediā nocte ā marītī cubiculō ēgressa domum patris suī rediit.
·         40     mīlitēs igitur, ā tribūnō iussī, Salvium ē balneō extrāxērunt, et, dēligandīs bracchiīs vulnerātīs, sanguinem suppressērunt.
·         40     postrīdiē Ursus Serviānus, quī cognitiōnī praefuerat, sententiam prōnūntiāvit: nōmen Salviī Fāstīs ērādendum esse;…


If I had made a bigger deal about the idea of ab meaning “from” (“And notice, class, that there’s always this idea of separation going on—whether it’s the house being far away from London, or the gems being separated from the merchant upon purchase, or seeking help from someone…”), then perhaps I could better work in the contrast between ab meaning “by” in Stage 21 when we get the Ablative of Agent and meaning “from” which students would have experienced only 8 times, and rather spread out.  Instead, I admittedly focused on just what Stage 21 was using (Agent). By the time we reach Stage 28, we have only had two additional instances of Separation (using ab). The focus in Stage 28 I have always thought of as Ablative of Means, though now I see that even some of those may be better identified as Ablative of Cause (see yesterday’s missive), and I have only contrasted Means with Agent.  Yet in Stage 28 alone there are 8 examples of Separation.  I just wasn’t seeing them (probably because to me those were the “easy” ones).  And it may be worth noting that the vast majority of these are Separations from people, five of those using auxilium…petere.

Up until Stage 29 all Ablative of Separations had been with a preposition. In Stage 29 we get nē labōre dēsisterent, which may also be one of the first instances of a negative indirect command—thus drawing the student’s attention in two directions (in my opinion). In Stage 30 we have domō abēgistī, but then domus rarely has a preposition, so that’s its own trick to learn. In Stage 33 we have domō eum trahēbant, nisi vitiīs tuīs dēstiteris, and domō ēiectus est.  In Stage 35 we get vīnō abstinēre, and in 36 plausū abstinet. Surely we could be building on the idea of separation and verbs that indicate separation with abstaining and ceasing (and others), especially since neither have prepositions?

One last thing.  I never really liked the phrase spē …dēiectī (which I feel appears more than the one time that I spotted in Stage 31).  I admittedly was always double checking whatever the English idiom was that they provided as a definition because I never understood the structure of this. But of course, if it is Separation because of dēiectī or Cause because of spē (or, hey, a little bit of both?) I have a much greater understanding which I can more easily put into English without memorizing a definition.  I never had problems with it in Latin, you understand, though that was probably on the intuitive side and not real understanding for what was going on.

Anyway. CLC has so many wonderful examples that when examined in groups or as a whole lead to clarity.  The sharp student that absorbs everything the first time (I was never really that student) probably won’t need to see so many examples together in order to understand the concept.  But perhaps many of our students do need to see those examples and have the repetitions pointed out.  In any event, I think it is unfortunate that nowhere in the textbook is a discussion of ablatives governing ideas of separation. It is not the first meaning of the ablative that I jump to when it doesn’t have a governing preposition, unless the verb has a prefix (ex-, ab-, de-) that make me consider it. Getting the preposition “off of” the verb won’t work in some circumstances, such as in the example above in the Hale & Buck section, antrō lātrāns, barking from the cave.