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Admittedly this evening I was looking for something to fight about. There's plenty not exactly right in the ol' personal life--frustrations at school, dealing with my own kids, normal but hectic family life. I've been sick and thus am worn out, I have a lot of work but really need rest, etc. So instead of moping, I picked a fight.
I was reading Rogueclassicism (google it) and caught an article about teacher shortage. There was a quote in it that set me off and I whipped off a note to the classics list because I like stirring up trouble there. They don't mind a good, vigorous argument and I think they don't half mind a prospective from down below (middle school). Here's what was in my first note:
***
>>Hahs said the real significance of learning Latin is the vocabulary
>>basis
it provides.
When will we ever get to the point where the majority of teachers say that the real significance of learning Latin is to READ WHAT CENTURIES OF FOLKS WROTE IN THEIR OWN WORDS? Why isn't that our goal? Why isn't communicating with people, who just happen to be dead, our goal? Heck, throw in some live folks too.
I wonder sometimes about Latin programs that go nowhere and serve no purpose except to fortify students for SATs, MATs and LSATS. Is this why we've let pronunciation standards slip to such a low? Is puzzling it together or going over lines in class really enough? Shouldn't we be teaching extensive reading too?
I know I'm preaching to the choir. I just get very frustrated every time I see on some NEW brochure or document or article that same, tired "Latin boosts wordpower" argument. Fine, that's a bonus. But why isn't reading the real goal? Is it because not enough teachers read IN LATIN on their own time to really reap the benefits?
Just thinking outloud after a long and tedious day....
***
There were several replies, some about how SAT sells programs, and stercus like that. Then there was a comment/question that prompted me to write even further. I'll put that second note here and head to bed where I desperately need to grade or work on tomorrow's lesson plans.
***
> But what percentage of college Latin students will learn the language
> well enough to appreciate original sources on their own? How many
> courses should they expect to take so they can do that?
It depends how it is being taught.
If we continue to just assume that covering lines is good enough for our intermediate college courses and never bother to address the issues of TRULY READING Latin from left to right, nor develop strategies to teach EXTENSIVE reading, well, then, students are unlikely to truly appreciate original sources. Oh, they might marvel at how the phrasing is or the beauty of word play in poetry, but they won't really appreciate original sources. Hell, I don't even to the extent I'd like to.
Funny, though, that other languages can achieve an expectation to actually read pages of a chapter or a whole chapter at a go. You have to be in grad school before anyone is gutsy enough to assign that much at a go. There's a reason why modern languages have language labs. We could start having them to focus just on learning how to read from left to right.
And our problem is that we focus all of our time on INTENSIVE reading, knowing what ever damn little word means, exploring every nuance. Nothing necessarily wrong with that. I've written many an A paper for Latin and English lit classes because I could explore in detail. Great. Fine. But how much did I read in Latin? Are we really convinced that QUALITY is better than QUANTITY here? Can you imagine if we told our ESL kids that, hey, it's ok if you only read ONE question on the standardized tests that No Child Left Behind is requiring you to take, as long as you read it very carefully with attention to every detail. Nevermind the other questions. Oh yeah, sure. That'd sell. Just think how lucky they'd feel if English were a dead language so there'd be an excuse for reading so little of it.
Sure SAT scores and word power sells, but after a while people start pointing out that you can simply take word power courses and not waste your time on a "dead language." Sure. It's true. And I'd add that too few if very many at all undergrads with their BA's in Latin in one hand and teaching certificate in another hand have a clue about extensive reading and have probably never had to plow through more than 60-100 lines a night of anything. And what a damn shame, because all we are doing is perpetuating a notion that we think the public wants to hear: that the main reason Latin should stay in the high schools is because of improved SAT scores. Oh, well, and the almighty AP exams that require literal meaning even when no one in their right mind would avoid a better sounding idiom.
We are like politians. And we reap what we sow, don't we? Heaven forbid anyone get gutsy enough to consider how to make learning to read--truly read--Latin at length the goal of a bachelors, and not just hitting a few major authors and learning all the fancy names for poetic structures. And let's not forget being able to parse anything at will. (Nothing better than having a parent come in and decline agricola for you--ah, how wonderful they've learned such a useful skill.)
And does it really matter if our goals match reality? My reality is that my impoverished middle students that I bust my butt trying to teach reading skills to end up with a teacher whose main pedagogical tool is a friggin'
crossword puzzle. Even for Vergil. Should I just give up then? Or should I hope that maybe one or two of these kids might make it into college and consider starting up again with Latin, and that they might remember a thing or two I taught them about reading from left to right?
I do know one thing. I do NOT want any of my students to ever talk about "puzzling out meaning" or that Latin is like a "secret code" or anything involving "decoding" and such. And while I might emphasize the relationship of Latin to English and Spanish with my students, I hope they see that as just part of the inheritance package, but not the main treat.
And if I thought that it was impossible to get them to learn to read extensively so why bother with reading theory at all, well, then, I might as well just give up and teach a word power class.
***
Let me add right now that on most days I feel like a mediocre teacher compared to many on the Latinteach list. They are more organized with lesson plans and syllabi, but... what's their goal? What's their real goal? Is our love of JCL and fascination with the Romans enough? Is our appreciation of word play in poetry enough? The power of Latin roots in building English vocabulary? SHOULDN'T OUR GOAL BE READING LATIN, LOTS OF IT, IN THE ORIGINAL? ANd I don't mean translating it out or looking up every damned word. Reading it. REading it and discussing it. Can we do that? Most would say no SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY HAVE NEVER DONE THAT. Should that be a good enough answer? Should it? SHOULD IT? Damnit, should it? Just because I can't shoot a soccer ball worth a damn shouldn't mean I don't want my son to shoot goals or think it's out of reach. It wouldn't be out of reach for me if I really worked at it.
We have this mental block about Latin. We have this mental block that keeps us from reading it in bulk. What if I don't understand every word? It's not like we have native speakers around to ask....
I was reading Rogueclassicism (google it) and caught an article about teacher shortage. There was a quote in it that set me off and I whipped off a note to the classics list because I like stirring up trouble there. They don't mind a good, vigorous argument and I think they don't half mind a prospective from down below (middle school). Here's what was in my first note:
***
>>Hahs said the real significance of learning Latin is the vocabulary
>>basis
it provides.
When will we ever get to the point where the majority of teachers say that the real significance of learning Latin is to READ WHAT CENTURIES OF FOLKS WROTE IN THEIR OWN WORDS? Why isn't that our goal? Why isn't communicating with people, who just happen to be dead, our goal? Heck, throw in some live folks too.
I wonder sometimes about Latin programs that go nowhere and serve no purpose except to fortify students for SATs, MATs and LSATS. Is this why we've let pronunciation standards slip to such a low? Is puzzling it together or going over lines in class really enough? Shouldn't we be teaching extensive reading too?
I know I'm preaching to the choir. I just get very frustrated every time I see on some NEW brochure or document or article that same, tired "Latin boosts wordpower" argument. Fine, that's a bonus. But why isn't reading the real goal? Is it because not enough teachers read IN LATIN on their own time to really reap the benefits?
Just thinking outloud after a long and tedious day....
***
There were several replies, some about how SAT sells programs, and stercus like that. Then there was a comment/question that prompted me to write even further. I'll put that second note here and head to bed where I desperately need to grade or work on tomorrow's lesson plans.
***
> But what percentage of college Latin students will learn the language
> well enough to appreciate original sources on their own? How many
> courses should they expect to take so they can do that?
It depends how it is being taught.
If we continue to just assume that covering lines is good enough for our intermediate college courses and never bother to address the issues of TRULY READING Latin from left to right, nor develop strategies to teach EXTENSIVE reading, well, then, students are unlikely to truly appreciate original sources. Oh, they might marvel at how the phrasing is or the beauty of word play in poetry, but they won't really appreciate original sources. Hell, I don't even to the extent I'd like to.
Funny, though, that other languages can achieve an expectation to actually read pages of a chapter or a whole chapter at a go. You have to be in grad school before anyone is gutsy enough to assign that much at a go. There's a reason why modern languages have language labs. We could start having them to focus just on learning how to read from left to right.
And our problem is that we focus all of our time on INTENSIVE reading, knowing what ever damn little word means, exploring every nuance. Nothing necessarily wrong with that. I've written many an A paper for Latin and English lit classes because I could explore in detail. Great. Fine. But how much did I read in Latin? Are we really convinced that QUALITY is better than QUANTITY here? Can you imagine if we told our ESL kids that, hey, it's ok if you only read ONE question on the standardized tests that No Child Left Behind is requiring you to take, as long as you read it very carefully with attention to every detail. Nevermind the other questions. Oh yeah, sure. That'd sell. Just think how lucky they'd feel if English were a dead language so there'd be an excuse for reading so little of it.
Sure SAT scores and word power sells, but after a while people start pointing out that you can simply take word power courses and not waste your time on a "dead language." Sure. It's true. And I'd add that too few if very many at all undergrads with their BA's in Latin in one hand and teaching certificate in another hand have a clue about extensive reading and have probably never had to plow through more than 60-100 lines a night of anything. And what a damn shame, because all we are doing is perpetuating a notion that we think the public wants to hear: that the main reason Latin should stay in the high schools is because of improved SAT scores. Oh, well, and the almighty AP exams that require literal meaning even when no one in their right mind would avoid a better sounding idiom.
We are like politians. And we reap what we sow, don't we? Heaven forbid anyone get gutsy enough to consider how to make learning to read--truly read--Latin at length the goal of a bachelors, and not just hitting a few major authors and learning all the fancy names for poetic structures. And let's not forget being able to parse anything at will. (Nothing better than having a parent come in and decline agricola for you--ah, how wonderful they've learned such a useful skill.)
And does it really matter if our goals match reality? My reality is that my impoverished middle students that I bust my butt trying to teach reading skills to end up with a teacher whose main pedagogical tool is a friggin'
crossword puzzle. Even for Vergil. Should I just give up then? Or should I hope that maybe one or two of these kids might make it into college and consider starting up again with Latin, and that they might remember a thing or two I taught them about reading from left to right?
I do know one thing. I do NOT want any of my students to ever talk about "puzzling out meaning" or that Latin is like a "secret code" or anything involving "decoding" and such. And while I might emphasize the relationship of Latin to English and Spanish with my students, I hope they see that as just part of the inheritance package, but not the main treat.
And if I thought that it was impossible to get them to learn to read extensively so why bother with reading theory at all, well, then, I might as well just give up and teach a word power class.
***
Let me add right now that on most days I feel like a mediocre teacher compared to many on the Latinteach list. They are more organized with lesson plans and syllabi, but... what's their goal? What's their real goal? Is our love of JCL and fascination with the Romans enough? Is our appreciation of word play in poetry enough? The power of Latin roots in building English vocabulary? SHOULDN'T OUR GOAL BE READING LATIN, LOTS OF IT, IN THE ORIGINAL? ANd I don't mean translating it out or looking up every damned word. Reading it. REading it and discussing it. Can we do that? Most would say no SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY HAVE NEVER DONE THAT. Should that be a good enough answer? Should it? SHOULD IT? Damnit, should it? Just because I can't shoot a soccer ball worth a damn shouldn't mean I don't want my son to shoot goals or think it's out of reach. It wouldn't be out of reach for me if I really worked at it.
We have this mental block about Latin. We have this mental block that keeps us from reading it in bulk. What if I don't understand every word? It's not like we have native speakers around to ask....
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