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Datives in CLC

Jan. 28th, 2016 11:15 am
ginlindzey: magistra laeta (Ginny)
A conversation came up on the Cambridge list regarding SALVIOI ROGANTI in Stage 40.  Many had replied, and of course this is definitely the correct answer, but I felt there was more to add.  So here it is:

***

>>Re line 5: "Salvio roganti" is a dative that goes with "suadebant": different people were recommending different things to Salvius [who was] asking what should be done.

Actually, there's a little something more here.
One of the things I tell my students to watch for is a dative case when in the midst of conversation. It develops over time in the text, beginning in Stage 11 when we start seeing the dative with respondit and dixit:

  • Marcus Quarto dixit "Afer candidatus optimus est."

  • "minime! Holconius candidatus optimus est," Quartus fratri respondit.

In Stage 23 we are met with this:

  • deinde Memor, qui iam tremebat sudabatque, alteri sacerdoti, "iubeo te," inquit, "omina inspicere."

The "inquit" is buried in the quote, which appears in the next paragraph in the text, so it appears that we have just a nominative and dative (Memor...alteri sacerdoti) without the "said" or "replied" or similar.  It does show up, but at first it doesn't appear to be there.  Admittedly alteri sacerdoti is difficult for students to pick up as dative without pausing to parse unless they are reading with expectation. The expectation is that we have a conversation going on, therefore someone will be speaking TO SOMEONE.
By Stage 32 (and probably sooner) we have datives being moved to the front of the sentence in a conversation. And in this case, we have a qui correlative in the dative:

  • "nemo nisi insanus laborat."
    cui respondit Euphrosyne voce serena, "omnibus autem laborandum est."

And then again:

  • huic Baebii sententiae omnes plauserunt.

And applause is a type of reply.  (And I like the genitive nicely nested inside the dative phrase.)
In Stage 39 we find one of the first (I think) datives with a participle:

  • Publio hoc narranti Domitianus manu significat ut desistat.

Dative up front again, in a conversation of sorts, and we get this wonderful snapshot of the action perfectly. Publius is still reciting his version of the Ovid they were studying and while he is doing this Domitian raises his hand and we end with an indirect command (without a "verb of the head" but certainly it's being communicated).
In fact, it is interesting as we move through the stages how CLC condenses and combines what we know.  In the case above, present participles, datives in conversation, plus an indirect command.  In Stage 40 it is condensed more:

  • Salvio roganti quid esset agendum, alii alia suadebant.

Dative in conversation (though we don't realize we have a conversation sort of thing going on until we get to suadebant, which of course, also takes a dative), present participle which is also a "verb of the head" governing an indirect question, and that indirect question also includes a passive periphrastic.  So cool.
I know I have skipped a lot of examples that would show the progression and development in the way datives are used, but this gives you a small glimpse.  These progressions are interesting to me to chase down, but a bit time consuming.
Don't forget once you are reading Vergil, you have plenty of examples of datives up front, sometimes with participles, and you have to keep in mind that there is a conversation of some sort going on:

  • talia iactanti stridens Aquilone procella / velum adversa ferit (1.102-103)

Anyway.  There's more to Salvio roganti than just accidentally confusing students with something that appears to be an ablative absolute.  It's not that at all. It's about datives, it's about conversations, it's about developing those reading expectations that are critical to moving forward in Latin.  And it's up to us teachers to truly understand what our textbook is doing, to ask these questions, to look for and follow the progressions, and show them to our students so they will develop the skills necessary.
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reading skills: participles and infinitives

Nov. 17th, 2015 10:18 pm
ginlindzey: magistra laeta (Ginny)
When all else fails for me I go back to one thing that I feel truly competent at: teaching reading skills, real reading from left to right. Over the years I have been developing my understanding of mental expectations. In working with my Latin 4s, we were talking about how important it is to truly understand what participles are doing, and to read with expectations with regards to infinitives. I decided it was time to try to write up some thoughts:

Participles:
1.      Most likely there is a noun of the same case nearby, usually before it, though it can come later in the sentence.  The main thing is that they will be in agreement in CASE, NUMBER, & GENDER.
·        astrologus ancillās lacrimantēs vīdit. – He saw the slavegirls crying. [acc]
·        Phormiō ad urbem contendit, medicum quaerēns. – Phormio hurried to the city, searching for the doctor. [nom]
·        mīlitēs gladiīs dēstrictīs intrāvērunt – The soldiers entered with swords drawn.

2.      Often other words are in between noun and participle, including prepositional phrases and adverbs.
·        Salvius et Memor, in hortō ambulantēs – Salvius and Memor, walking in the garden,
·            servus, graviter vulnerātus – the slave, (having been) seriously wounded

3.      Present Active Participles can have Accusative objects.
·        servī, Barbillum portantēs – the  slaves, carrying Barbillus,

4.      Perfect Passive Participles often have “by” phrases (ablatives) with it.
·        faber, ab architectō laudātus – the craftsman praised by the architect
·        mīlitēs, gladiīs armātī – the soldiers, armed with swords

5.      Perfect Active Participles can have Accusative objects.
·        Latrō, haec verba locūtus – Latro, having spoken these words

6.      Future Active Participles can have Accusative objects.
·        nunc ego quoque moritūrus sum. – Now I am also about to die.
·        praecō puellam vīdit, nāvem cōnscēnsuram. – The herald saw the girl about to go on board the ship.

7.      If there doesn’t seem to be a noun of the same case for it to modify but it is clearly acting as a participle, consider the subject of the previous sentence as being understood. 
·        haec verba locūtus, rēgī pōculum obtulit. – Having spoken these words, he (Cephalus) offered the cup to the king.

8.      If you have a perfect tense participle but feel you really need a verb (or an infinitive in indirect statement), consider whether a form of “est” should be understood.
·        Haec ubi dicta [sunt] – When these words were spoken,...
·        ēmissamque [esse] hiemem sēnsit Neptūnus – Neptune sensed that a storm had been sent out,

9.      If it is a present participle by itself, consider translating with “those (people)” (pay attention to the case!).
·        strepitum labōrantium – the noise of those (people) working
·        ad praetereuntēs – toward those (people) passing by

10.   Present participles in the dative are frequently used in the give and take of a conversation.
·        Salviō rogantī quid esset agendum, aliī alia suādēbant. – To Salvius asking what must be done, different people answered different things.
·        Tālia iactantī strīdēns Aquilōne procella / vēlum adversa ferit... – To him (Aeneas) hurling such words, a storm squealing with the North Wind opposite (the sail) struck the sail.

11.   The “time” of the participle is relative to that of the main verb. Present Participles are the same time as the main verb, Perfect Participles are one step back in time, Future Participles are one step forward in time. This affects how you translate Ablative Absolutes.
·        iānuā apertā, in līmine appāruit praecō. – After the door had been opened, the herald appeared on the threshold.
·        Olympō recitante, ingressus est Epaphrodītus. – While Olympus was reciting, Epaphroditus entered.
·        Martiālis, recitātiōne perfectā, ex audītōriō ēgreditur, omnibus plaudentibus. – Martial, after the recitation was finished, leaves from the auditorium while everyone is applauding.

Infinitives:
1.      When reading in word order, if you encounter an infinitive first, consider that it may be a complementary infinitive—completing a verb. Common suspects are:
·        volō (I want), nōlō (I don’t want), malō (I prefer), possum (I am able)
·        dēbeō (I ought), audeō (I dare), cōnor (I try)
·        incipiō (I begin), coepī (I began)

2.      Neuter adjectives with a form of est or impersonal verbs often infinitives.
·        victōribus decōrum est victīs parcere. – It is proper for victors to spare the conquered.
·        necesse est mihi exīre. – It is necessary for me to leave.
·        licetne mihi īre ad fontem aquae? – Is it permitted forme to go to the water fountain?

3.      When reading in word order, if you encounter a form of iubeō, expect accusatives and infinitives. This is particularly helpful in identifying and properly understanding those hard to recognize passive infinitives.
·        iubeō tē ipsum Cogidubnō pōculum offerre. – I order you yourself to offer the cup to Cogidubnus.

4.      When reading in word order, a “verb of the head” will often precede indirect statements formed with accusatives and infinitives. However, it doesn’t have to:
·        Intereā magnō miscērī murmure pontum, / ēmissamque hiemem sēnsit Neptūnus – Meanwhile Neptune sensed that the sea was being mixed with a great murmur, and that a storm had been sent out...

5.      If you can see one obvious infinitive and there are conjunctions (et, -que, etc), reread and look for passive infinitives.
·        Chionē iussit lectīcam parārī et lectīcāriōs arcessī. – Chione ordered the sedan chair to be prepared and the chair carriers to be summoned.

6.      If you see no obvious governing verb but seem to have a string of infinitives, you may have historic infinitives (for creating immediacy).
·        dein concutī ferrum, vincula movērī. – Then iron is clashed together, chains are rattled.
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Test Revisions, Genitives, and constantly combing the stages for MORE

May. 27th, 2012 01:19 pm
ginlindzey: At ACL (Default)
I'm working on my Latin 1 exam, which is needing much revision from last year as did my other two exams because of the stage quizzes I implemented this year. The passages from the stage quizzes now make up the 2nd half of the exam--the "midterm" portion of it. 

Each year I become more obsessed about making sure I utilize exactly what's in the book for examples.  I will comb the stages for examples of usage, examine them with students, work them, review them, etc.  And each year I find that somehow I've overlooked something good.  A lot of times it has to do with Latin 1, because I've taught that level for so long and have quia material for that level already developed.  But for instance, I'm looking right now at the genitive material I have for review for stages 17 and 18, and realize that I did not pull examples from EVERY story.  This year I was able to read stories that often I have to skip because of time. 

So right now I'm looking at stage 17, ad templum, which I usually skip. I didn't skip it this year, but we only read it, I believe.  I'm looking now at it again, thinking/reminding myself that one thing I discovered that was nice about this stage was that it really worked particular prepositions (de, for instance).  I did skip in stage 18, Clemens tabernarius.  Not enough time.  A pity, because I'm noticing, among other things, that it is the first story in which we have UT meaning AS.  "haec tabernam, ut dixi, prope templum deae Isidis erat." 

I like looking at when we have the first instance of something that becomes important in reading Latin.  For instance, I believe stage 13 has the first use of ille = he... wait, I can't find it.  I do find the first use of illi = they in stage 15 in caerimonia: illi, postquam atrium intraverunt, magnam turbam viderunt.  AH, first use of ille = he is in tumultus in stage 17: ille tabernam prope portum Alexandriae possidebat.  And it is from this point that we begin discussing how ille is used to indicate a change of subject.  This is a very important reading cue, especially when reading Vergil.  I noticed when I was reading some Eutropius with a student after school this year that he used forms of is, ea, id instead to indicate a change in subject--but it was something I was now trained to EXPECT.

And building up reading expectations is so critical in being able to read Latin well.

Anyway, I wish I had pulled ALL THE GENITIVES in stages 17 and 18 for my review material so I'd have more sentences to choose from for the test.  And I'm becoming distracted by teaching issues instead of just writing the damned test.  So, back to work for me.

p.s. I also just noticed, though I may be wrong, that the first use of the genitive NOT piggy-backing on a prepositional phrase is in the last sentence of the last story of stage 18 (pro taberna Clementis): nunc Clemens est princeps tabernariorum.  This is something I want to watch at the beginning of Latin 2--how to recognize the genitive, where we can expect to see it, etc.
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