ginlindzey | Entries tagged with datives

October 2017

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A conversation came up on the Cambridge list regarding SALVIOI ROGANTI in Stage 40. Many had replied, and of course this is definitely the correct answer, but I felt there was more to add. So here it is:

***

>>Re line 5: "Salvio roganti" is a dative that goes with "suadebant": different people were recommending different things to Salvius [who was] asking what should be done.

Actually, there's a little something more here.

One of the things I tell my students to watch for is a dative case when in the midst of conversation. It develops over time in the text, beginning in Stage 11 when we start seeing the dative with respondit and dixit:

Marcus Quarto dixit "Afer candidatus optimus est."

"minime! Holconius candidatus optimus est," Quartus fratri respondit.

In Stage 23 we are met with this:

deinde Memor, qui iam tremebat sudabatque, alteri sacerdoti, "iubeo te," inquit, "omina inspicere."

The "inquit" is buried in the quote, which appears in the next paragraph in the text, so it appears that we have just a nominative and dative (Memor...alteri sacerdoti) without the "said" or "replied" or similar. It does show up, but at first it doesn't appear to be there. Admittedly alteri sacerdoti is difficult for students to pick up as dative without pausing to parse unless they are reading with expectation. The expectation is that we have a conversation going on, therefore someone will be speaking TO SOMEONE.

By Stage 32 (and probably sooner) we have datives being moved to the front of the sentence in a conversation. And in this case, we have a qui correlative in the dative:

"nemo nisi insanus laborat."
cui respondit Euphrosyne voce serena, "omnibus autem laborandum est."

And then again:

huic Baebii sententiae omnes plauserunt.

And applause is a type of reply. (And I like the genitive nicely nested inside the dative phrase.)

In Stage 39 we find one of the first (I think) datives with a participle:

Publio hoc narranti Domitianus manu significat ut desistat.

Dative up front again, in a conversation of sorts, and we get this wonderful snapshot of the action perfectly. Publius is still reciting his version of the Ovid they were studying and while he is doing this Domitian raises his hand and we end with an indirect command (without a "verb of the head" but certainly it's being communicated).

In fact, it is interesting as we move through the stages how CLC condenses and combines what we know. In the case above, present participles, datives in conversation, plus an indirect command. In Stage 40 it is condensed more:

Salvio roganti quid esset agendum, alii alia suadebant.

Dative in conversation (though we don't realize we have a conversation sort of thing going on until we get to suadebant, which of course, also takes a dative), present participle which is also a "verb of the head" governing an indirect question, and that indirect question also includes a passive periphrastic. So cool.

I know I have skipped a lot of examples that would show the progression and development in the way datives are used, but this gives you a small glimpse. These progressions are interesting to me to chase down, but a bit time consuming.

Don't forget once you are reading Vergil, you have plenty of examples of datives up front, sometimes with participles, and you have to keep in mind that there is a conversation of some sort going on:

talia iactanti stridens Aquilone procella / velum adversa ferit (1.102-103)

Anyway. There's more to Salvio roganti than just accidentally confusing students with something that appears to be an ablative absolute. It's not that at all. It's about datives, it's about conversations, it's about developing those reading expectations that are critical to moving forward in Latin. And it's up to us teachers to truly understand what our textbook is doing, to ask these questions, to look for and follow the progressions, and show them to our students so they will develop the skills necessary.

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When all else fails for me I go back to one thing that I feel truly competent at: teaching reading skills, real reading from left to right. Over the years I have been developing my understanding of mental expectations. In working with my Latin 4s, we were talking about how important it is to truly understand what participles are doing, and to read with expectations with regards to infinitives. I decided it was time to try to write up some thoughts:

Participles:
1.      Most likely there is a noun of the same case nearby, usually before it, though it can come later in the sentence. The main thing is that they will be in agreement in CASE, NUMBER, & GENDER.
·        astrologus ancillās lacrimantēs vīdit. – He saw the slavegirls crying. [acc]
·        Phormiō ad urbem contendit, medicum quaerēns. – Phormio hurried to the city, searching for the doctor. [nom]
·        mīlitēs gladiīs dēstrictīs intrāvērunt – The soldiers entered with swords drawn.

2.      Often other words are in between noun and participle, including prepositional phrases and adverbs.
·        Salvius et Memor, in hortō ambulantēs – Salvius and Memor, walking in the garden,
·            servus, graviter vulnerātus – the slave, (having been) seriously wounded

3.      Present Active Participles can have Accusative objects.
·        servī, Barbillum portantēs – the slaves, carrying Barbillus,

4.      Perfect Passive Participles often have “by” phrases (ablatives) with it.
·        faber, ab architectō laudātus – the craftsman praised by the architect
·        mīlitēs, gladiīs armātī – the soldiers, armed with swords

5.      Perfect Active Participles can have Accusative objects.
·        Latrō, haec verba locūtus – Latro, having spoken these words

6.      Future Active Participles can have Accusative objects.
·        nunc ego quoque moritūrus sum. – Now I am also about to die.
·        praecō puellam vīdit, nāvem cōnscēnsuram. – The herald saw the girl about to go on board the ship.

7.      If there doesn’t seem to be a noun of the same case for it to modify but it is clearly acting as a participle, consider the subject of the previous sentence as being understood.
·        haec verba locūtus, rēgī pōculum obtulit. – Having spoken these words, he (Cephalus) offered the cup to the king.

8.      If you have a perfect tense participle but feel you really need a verb (or an infinitive in indirect statement), consider whether a form of “est” should be understood.
·        Haec ubi dicta [sunt] – When these words were spoken,...
·        ēmissamque [esse] hiemem sēnsit Neptūnus – Neptune sensed that a storm had been sent out,

9.      If it is a present participle by itself, consider translating with “those (people)” (pay attention to the case!).
·        strepitum labōrantium – the noise of those (people) working
·        ad praetereuntēs – toward those (people) passing by

10.   Present participles in the dative are frequently used in the give and take of a conversation.
·        Salviō rogantī quid esset agendum, aliī alia suādēbant. – To Salvius asking what must be done, different people answered different things.
·        Tālia iactantī strīdēns Aquilōne procella / vēlum adversa ferit... – To him (Aeneas) hurling such words, a storm squealing with the North Wind opposite (the sail) struck the sail.

11.   The “time” of the participle is relative to that of the main verb. Present Participles are the same time as the main verb, Perfect Participles are one step back in time, Future Participles are one step forward in time. This affects how you translate Ablative Absolutes.
·        iānuā apertā, in līmine appāruit praecō. – After the door had been opened, the herald appeared on the threshold.
·        Olympō recitante, ingressus est Epaphrodītus. – While Olympus was reciting, Epaphroditus entered.
·        Martiālis, recitātiōne perfectā, ex audītōriō ēgreditur, omnibus plaudentibus. – Martial, after the recitation was finished, leaves from the auditorium while everyone is applauding.

Infinitives:
1.      When reading in word order, if you encounter an infinitive first, consider that it may be a complementary infinitive—completing a verb. Common suspects are:
·        volō (I want), nōlō (I don’t want), malō (I prefer), possum (I am able)
·        dēbeō (I ought), audeō (I dare), cōnor (I try)
·        incipiō (I begin), coepī (I began)

2.      Neuter adjectives with a form of est or impersonal verbs often infinitives.
·        victōribus decōrum est victīs parcere. – It is proper for victors to spare the conquered.
·        necesse est mihi exīre. – It is necessary for me to leave.
·        licetne mihi īre ad fontem aquae? – Is it permitted forme to go to the water fountain?

3.      When reading in word order, if you encounter a form of iubeō, expect accusatives and infinitives. This is particularly helpful in identifying and properly understanding those hard to recognize passive infinitives.
·        iubeō tē ipsum Cogidubnō pōculum offerre. – I order you yourself to offer the cup to Cogidubnus.

4.      When reading in word order, a “verb of the head” will often precede indirect statements formed with accusatives and infinitives. However, it doesn’t have to:
·        Intereā magnō miscērī murmure pontum, / ēmissamque hiemem sēnsit Neptūnus – Meanwhile Neptune sensed that the sea was being mixed with a great murmur, and that a storm had been sent out...

5.      If you can see one obvious infinitive and there are conjunctions (et, -que, etc), reread and look for passive infinitives.
·        Chionē iussit lectīcam parārī et lectīcāriōs arcessī. – Chione ordered the sedan chair to be prepared and the chair carriers to be summoned.

6.      If you see no obvious governing verb but seem to have a string of infinitives, you may have historic infinitives (for creating immediacy).
·        dein concutī ferrum, vincula movērī. – Then iron is clashed together, chains are rattled.

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This first part was sent by a Latin teacher to the Latinteach list. Below is my reply. Yeah, I should get some sleep instead. Silly me....

> salvete omnes,
>
> I am nearing the end of my second year teaching Latin. It is great fun, and I have really been enjoying teaching from the Cambridge Latin course.
>
> However, I find that as I get to the end of Latin II and beginning of Latin III, the presentation in Cambridge starts to feel a bit cumbersome.
>
> For example, about halfway through Unit III (in the USA edition), when the subjunctive comes up, there are two or three stages right in a row of introducing small new uses of the subjunctive. I have not yet been able to bring myself to going through every passage in each of these stages. It has actually worked pretty well skipping whole sections to Stage 28 (where the ablative is introduced) and just giving a list of the two or three uses of the subjunctive.
>
> But even at this point, after skipping some stuff to keep the pace up, it still feels like too much to get through just to teach a few more topics. I want to start reading real Latin literature soon, and really we only need to cover 1) deponent verbs 2) indirect statement and 3) ablative absolute before we can do so.
>
> What is everyone's opinion on transitioning away from Cambridge around Stages 28/29/30 in order to cover those three topics more quickly and simply? Does anyone else transition from Cambridge there or at a different point?

I am a pretty passionate CLC teacher. This is my, hmmm, 13th year teaching from CLC, my 7th using Units 3 & 4. The more I teach from Unit 3 and 4, the more I like them, and even Unit 2. The sophistication in how the grammar is introduced still blows me away. I see new fabulous things all the time. For instance, ille, which is first introduced as "that", by stage 15 (or sooner?) is suddenly being used at the beginning of a sentence as a pronoun for "he." I can say with certainty that illi (pl nom) for "they" appears for the first time in Stage 15, Caerimonia. Now, what is so significant about this? Well, notice WHEN we use these pronouns: when we are switching subjects. So, at this point, whatever was just the accusative is now the subject, or as I told my students, it screams subject change. (Oh yeah, and I screamed that with one of my classes just to wake them up. ha.)

Why do I care about something so small? Because I'm all about teaching students to truly READ Latin, not to decode it. Even if you are a good decoder of Latin, you will hit a glass ceiling with regards to quality and quantity of your reading skills. (I could go on about that, but I'll point you instead to Dexter Hoyos's _Latin: How to Read it Fluently_.)

As for Unit 3, I am one of the odd ducks that really likes how they introduced and work the participles in the beginning. When I test/quiz on perfect passive vs perfect active participles, I make sure that I am using other examples from the book that have additional clues. That is, perfect passives will have an ablative of agent with them (faber, ab architecto laudatus), perfect ACCtives will have ACCs (rex, balneum ingressus,). We also work those phrases as a UNIT, metaphrasing them in warm-ups using the placeholding phrase "Someone verbed something." For example,

faber, ab architecto laudatus, = The craftsman, praised by the architect, verbed something.
but
fabrum, ab architecto laudatum, = Someone verbed the craftsman, praised by the architect.

Seeing participial phrases as whole units is something I work continuously on, but it does help students to start seeing phrasing, which is so important.

As for how the subjunctives are introduced, I like that too. They start with the forms that require no special wording or typical subjunctive weirdness: cum clauses and indirect questions. Then they work through the UT clauses.

I start Latin 3 with Stage 31 and go thru 40 + either 44 or 45. And I hate it when we have to skip a story. Each story has some tidbit, some SOMETHING that becomes useful or important later on, whether it's the first time a particular vocab item or idiom is used, or the first time a subtle construction is introduced (like qui correlatives), etc. The first time I taught Vergil I realized just how marvelously CLC worked the NOM-DAT pairing in conversations, making the transition to Vergil's style for such things a piece of cake. Also the way CLC works up to just using "versus" before speaking (e.g., in stage 28, where in Cena Salvii, there's a line that's something like "Salvius ad hospitem versus, 'dic mihi, Belimice,' inquit, ..." I can't wait to take the Caesar course at UTexas this summer (to prep for AP next year) so that I will start noticing the subtleties in CLC that work up to Caesar/prose. :-) Yes, I could go on and on about such stuff.

You might find my Cambridge quia pages useful to reinforce grammatical concepts. We go to the computer lab once a week in Latin 2 and 3 (day before quizzes/tests), and only before tests in Latin 1 (because we don't really need computer reinforcement of details yet).

Latin 1, Unit 1: http://www.quia.com/pages/drippinglatin1a.html
Latin 1, Unit 2 (thru 18): http://www.quia.com/pages/drippinglatin1b.html
Latin 2, Stages 19-30 (mainly Unit 3): http://www.quia.com/pages/drippinglatin2.html
Latin 3, Stages 31-40, +44 (though I'll be adding 45 this year): http://www.quia.com/pages/drippinglatin3.html

If you end up with your own quia.com account and import any of my activities, please at least give me credit in the blank below the link for descriptions. Many hours (many, many hours--heck, years) went into building these activities.

Attend a Cambridge workshop, join the Cambridge list, brainstorm with other Cambridge teachers about ways to teach from the text. But don't toss it out of hand because you aren't used to its approach and think it is too slow in introducing grammar. Remember, its goal is to build quality READERS of Latin, and in thoughtful hands it can do just that.

Thanks for listening.

Current Music: Pandora

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hodie est dies Martis Gravis = Mardi Gras.

I wasn't thinking about that as I planned for today. I was thinking mainly about Stage 14 in CLC, that conjugating volo was going to be on the vocab quiz tomorrow, that we had begun discussing noun adjective agreement and such topics as Case Number & Gender. And then a student walked in wearing beads. And then I remembered I had a bag of mardi gras beads in my cupboard that I had purchased last year for an event that were never used.

So I grabbed a big handful and put them on. Then after students started on the warm-up and I was circulating around the room handing back quizzes, some started to ask in English if they could have the beads. :-) teachable moment.

ME: visne monile habere?

And eventually the students caught on and one by one. Then it went something like this.
MAGISTRA: visne monile habere?
DISCIPULUS: volo monile habere.
MAGISTRA: visne habere monile purpureum? aut caeruleum? aut viride? aut argenteum? aut aureum? aut rubrum?
DISCIPULUS: volo habere monile purpureum ET argenteum! (etc)
MAGISTRA: omnes! repetite: monile purpureum! monile argenteum!

After playing with that and with vultisne/volumus, we practiced conjugating volo, finished going over the warm-up, headed into vocab drill, and read Domitilla cubiculum parat I.

First period was the most fun.

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Besides totally rethinking how I assess & my pacing for next year, I have other things on my summer to-do list.

1) attend Rusticatio. Of course, I'd need to get my act together and fill out my application and send it in.

2) attend the GT workshop that I'm required to attend (I forgot to last year). Need to get registered for that.

3) determine the first instance CLC uses ille as he, referring to the person in the accusative in the previous sentence; then track all the instances, noting changes or any other nuances

4) track the use of qui transitionals in CLC

5) track the use of datives in replying in CLC. That is, in stage 11 we start seeing things like Quartus fratri respondit. But in stage 40 I know we see something like (and this is off the top of my head), Salvio roganti quid agendum esset, alii alia suadebant. (Something like that). By the time we're into Vergil, we're seeing those datives all the time in conversations.

6) start reading the Caesar that will be on the 2013 AP test.

7) work on the novel I started writing. (yeah, we won't get into that here.)

8) EXERCISE. Tone up. Get fit and FEEL fit.

ahem. Well, there's probably more--especially on certain literary patterns in CLC. But it's time for my dance class. More later.

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We just started Stage 9 in CLC on Monday. This is where the dative case is
introduced. We worked through the sentences at the beginning of the
chapter, did a bit of TPR to explain ostendit and elegit and other words,
and admittedly translated into English (one day I'd like to be able to
maintain it all in Latin). It went well enough, but I knew things weren't
sinking in.

Yesterday we worked at the beginning of class on the model sentences I use (see
below*) instead of a full noun ending chart (since genitives/ablatives
aren't formally introduced until Unit 2)--copying and chanting. Then we put
it away. I got out my monkey.

My monkey has these arms that can stretch with little pockets on the paws so
you can shoot it like a slingshot. He's great. I should name him. He
looks like Curious George.

So first I taught them: DA MIHI SIMIUM! They would have to say "da mihi
simium!" then I would say "da tibi simium?" and they would repeat "da mihi
simium!" and I would shoot it at them. Then the class would break out in
loud "DA MIHI SIMIUM!" 's and the "da tibi" part would repeat until each
student in the class had had a turn asking for, receiving and shooting the
monkey.

Then I taught discipulae/discipulO. I would point to a student with my
sponge on a stick and the class would have to decide whether to say "da
discipulae simium" or "da discipulO simium". We'd keep chanting the right
one until the person had the monkey ready to shoot.

At the very end of class we went to plurals, noting that the masculine and
feminine were both the same--discipulIs. So then it was a competition
between da discipulIs simium and da magistrae simium.

I think when we approach the story tomorrow we'll have better connection
with those endings, and that's what it's all about.

***
I wrote the above yesterday for the Latinteach list. I'm looking at it today and thinking a couple of things: 1) this is a game and some people will say "middle school teachers play too many games" and 2) that the majority of the games I play have to have substance, which I think this does, so I don't care what some people will say. There was no candy involved, no external reward except for the physical activity. It was a class of high oral Latin content, of using the language in context, etc.

But with that said, I wrote this after my 2nd period class and was feeling great because the cooperation level was high, the kids participated well, and I think they got the point and did internalize the endings. Unfortunately 5th period was not the same. And this sometimes happens, which perhaps is why I'm looking at this right now and wondering should I have "played a game."

As a teacher, what you can't do is totally blame students when things go wrong. That's the easy way out. Yes, 5th period is my more apathetic class but there's more to it than that. It is a larger class--was it too large for this activity to be successful? How could I have made it more a more productive activity for a larger group? Even though it was chaotic, was it really less effective than with the 2nd period? Do I think I reached more students with this activity than I would have with just reading the next story in the book? Yes, I do. And, yes, I think it will help with reading the next story today.

I didn't do this activity last year, and I do recall that one of my better students last year still didn't understand the dative case at the end of the year. I'm aiming for better results this year!

And one last thing, of course, is that there is a time to NOT agonize over why things are less successful with one class than with another. You always need to reflect upon what you do, otherwise how will you learn? But now that I've reflected, it's time to move on.

***
Model Sentences:
*These are my model sentences which can be lined up so NOM, DAT, and ACC are
in columns and thus can be used like a chart.

ancilla puellae statuam dat.
The slave-girl gives the statue to the girl.
ancillae puellis statuas dant.
The slave-girls give the statues to the girls.
dominus servo anulum dabat.
The master was giving the ring to the slave.
domini servis anulos dabant.
The masters were giving the rings to the slaves.
mater patri infantem dedit.
The mother gave the baby to the father.
matres patribus infantes dederunt.
The mothers gave the babies to the fathers.

Current Mood: drained
Current Music: (radio)

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Page Summary

Datives in CLC
reading skills: participles and infinitives
Jumping the CLC Ship? Wait a minute...
Teachable Moments!
lots of to-do's
teaching datives

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